Tsarevna Lebed, The Swan Princess by Mikhail Aleksandrovich Vrubel painted in 1900 AD.
I found a good comment by “thedeti” responding to Jack’s post over at Σ Frame. So, I will post his comment in its entirety, as I have done once before. I borrowed the illustration below from Pete Rambo.
Thedeti says:
The main problem though is everyone thinking women are using this model; but they’re really not. This is really really subtle.
Jack describes this model:
God
Man
Wife
Children
Children submit to wife/mother. Wife submits to Man. Man submits to God.
Most Christian women, and nearly all clergy and Protestant family ministries, use this model:
God
Husband & Wife
Children
Children submit to wife/mother. Wife submits to God. Husband submits to God. Husband and wife submit to each other. Wife submits to husband if and only if she gets clearance from God through “her Holy Spirit”. (Her feelings, really.) Wife filters everything Husband wants, needs, desires, is, and does through “her Holy Spirit”. (“Is this in line with God’s will?” Does my Holy Spirit lead me that this is OK?”) If “yes”, submission to her husband is approved. If “no”, she is not required to submit to her husband.
Under this model, Husband and Wife are co-equal partners. Neither is above or below the other.
The husband is also not called “man”. He’s “husband”. In her eyes, his sole function is to serve her interests as protector and provider, and as “priest, prophet and king”. It never occurs to her that he has other functions. It never occurs to her that God has higher, loftier things for him. To her, the husband is HER priest, HER prophet, and HER king — Those functions were created, and he occupies them, solely for her benefit. His sole functions are to make money and turn it all over to his wife; to take a bullet for her; and to pray for her and lead her. In this model, Husband has literally no other functions or purposes. The marriage, the relationship, become all about her, and what she wants, needs, desires, is, and does. In doing so, submission to God falls away; and he submits to his wife.
This is wrong, of course, but today’s Christians use it because it gives lip service to submission without actually requiring true submission. It lets her “top from the bottom”. It lets her run the show without actually looking like she’s running the show. And it lets women feel better about “submission” because it is the one thing every woman hates – to lay it all down in the marriage before a man – a man she picked. Most women don’t ever truly submit to a man.
In heaven, men and women aren’t given in marriage to each other. But down here, in the fallen world, she submits to him, and he submits to God. If she has questions about God’s will for her, her marriage, or her children, she’s to go to her husband and have HIM seek the Lord about it. If she has questions about what God’s word says, she’s to go to her husband and have HIM seek the Lord about it. If she isn’t getting what she wants/needs in her marriage, she’s to go to her husband and have HIM seek the Lord about it.
God calls him. He follows. Or not, in which case he does it himself until he is at his wit’s end.
He invites her. She follows. Or not, in which case she does it herself (or with a series of other men in psuedo-submission through sex), until she’s at her wit’s end. (Gee, I wonder where I’ve seen that before?)
Most marriages don’t run this way. They just don’t. They LOOK like they do, the participants SAY they do, but they don’t.
Yesterday I posted an update on my other site:
I am still working through the heart issue with Mrs. Apostle. The mouth says, “Yes” to submission because she understands at some level that it’s in the bible, but the habits (built over nearly 2 decades) and willful contentiousness are strong. The frame of reference for a wife is spot on for the modern wife. It really is all about her. Dating: guy supposed to chase. Engagement: She wants the big ring to show off. Wedding planning: “That’s not the way I want it!” Marriage: You are supposed to love me like Christ loved the church. This is why I am a HUGE proponent of colossal male shit testing starting at dating. You test the hell out of her weakest areas to avoid adverse selection.
Sharkly – God created a help for Adam. Eve’s “submission” lay in doing what she was created to do – help (except that she didn’t, unless we want to consider getting them kicked out of the Garden as “helping”). One cannot be that help without submitting their will to the will of the one they are helping. This “submission” thing, created by God in the creating of her to be a help, has nothing to do with salvation.
Is salvation intended only for males? When the Bible says that all will stand before God and give account of what they did while in the body, is that for males only? If females are included at the Judgement Seat, may they get off the hook by pointing at their husband, since the wife had no direct connection / communication with God over the course of their marriage?
Unmarried young ladies can get “saved”, and have direct communication with God – but the minute they get married that direct line with God gets terminated?
You may well be right in your diagram of children -> wife -> husband -> God. But you haven’t yet made the case that the following verses apply only to males. If, indeed, the Holy Spirit speaks to, and God calls, both males and females, then you need a pretty strong defense (which you have not yet presented) of why a wife can only get to God (and God can only get to her) through her husband.
And note that, so far as we know, none of the following verses applied to Eve. Yet, relying on the simplest meaning of the verses, they do apply to women today. The fact that Eve was deceived then has no bearing on the wife of today, who is called directly by God, brought to spiritual life by God, and ministered to / guided by the Holy Spirit (not her husband).
—–
1. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. (Colossians 2:13; NIV) And you [hath he brought to life], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1; KJV)
2. No man cometh unto the Father but by me (Jesus speaking. John 14:6 ) [Yet] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: (John 6:44) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
3. All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27) (Can God draw us without being revealed first by Jesus? John 6:44)
4. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)
5. Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the [help of the] Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3
Please read Points 1-5 carefully. This is what God actually says to us, through his word in the Bible: No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: … All that the Father giveth me shall come to me (says Jesus); and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And no one can snatch them out of my hand. Conclusion: No man comes to Jesus by himself; he comes only because God draws him. Is this true only for males? I don’t think the plain meaning of the verses, plus others that are in accord with the points made in these verses, supports the idea that God and the Holy Spirit work only with males, and not with females as well.
Please note that this is not an argument for Calvanism. I’m simply pointing out that the Bible does say these things. These things have to be dealt with before we can have confidence in the idea that God only deals with wives through their husbands. For that contention to be true, these verses would have to be directed only at males. And I don’t think the Bible supports the notion that these verses are directed only at males.
And, finally – we have that darned “… but if she leaves” phrase that Pauls says are words from the Lord, not from Paul (1 Corinthians 7:11). She (the leaver, the disobeyer of her husband) is on good terms with God so long as she remains unmarried. Having no verbal contact with her husband, but remaining “married”, how ever will she be guided by the Holy Spirit and by the word of the Lord?
Rhetorical questions all.
Every man should come into any relationship or situation like the whirlwind from hosea 8:7 or he will have even bigger problems with women especialy&also other men&the world at large!NEVER SURRENDER is good for most purposes advice in life for all men!Being accused of”Turning the world upside down” still works in the 21st century as it did in the first century with paul,silas&jason!The wicked&evil ones out here sees any challenge to their supposed decency as not good?What are their fruits is the thing to keep in mind,right!?
RichardP – I see what you are saying and your points are valid, if that is what Deti was commenting on. This is about the authority hierarchy God established. Since we know God’s word does not contradict itself (ie it’s all true), we know that both the hierarchy and your points 1-5 are both true. Women going to their husbands (vs someone else) if they have questions about scripture is about this hierarchy, maintaining a health marriage and not usurping the authority God gave husbands. Side note, I’ve lived the battle of headship with Mrs. Apostle and IT. IS. MISERABLE. (and sexless) so maintaining the authority of headship is quite important. The fact that headship exists in no way invalidates the Holy Spirit moving in wives, or single girls for that matter, and I would suggest that in light of the curse in Genesis 3 a wife’s faith in God and the Holy Spirit moving in her is essential to maintaining the hierarchy.
Everyman should come into any relationship like the whirlwind from hosea 8:7 or he will have even bigger problems especialy with women&orther men&the world at large!NEVER SURRENDER is good all purpose advice for all men!
Being accused of ”turning the world upside down” still works in the 21st century like it did in the first century with st.paul,silas&jason in acts17:6!But its the wicked ones out here who have turned the holy hierarchy of God,husband&wife upside down not the true followers of christ,right?
Precisely professor
‘The fact that Eve was deceived then has no bearing on the wife of today, who is called directly by God, brought to spiritual life by God, and ministered to / guided by the Holy Spirit (not her husband).’
The fact that Eve was deceived has COMPLETE bearing on the wife, and the woman and the girl, of today. ALL females were cursed by God with specific impositions, and not a single one has been born since Eve that did not live each of her days under that curse. ALL females, yes including Mary the birth-mother of Christ, a sinner, share in Eve’s predisposition for deceit and self-deceit, and in Eve’s curses.
I didn’t read the rest of your spiel because I can’t be bothered with more of your creative interpretations of God’s Word.
Ray – I got distracted by #’s1-5 and didn’t pick up on the quote like you did.
“I didn’t read the rest of your spiel because I can’t be bothered with more of your creative interpretations of God’s Word.”
I would caution against this mindset, not because you may change the other commenter’s mind, but because others seeking knowledge may wonder why they are creative interpretations. In my trek from an egalitarian mindset on marriage to being a staunch advocate of biblical patriarchy, it was often the comments in blogs like this one that helped more than the blog itself. The uninhibited back and forth of points, counterpoints and scripture references was and is a valuable part of me gaining and furthering my understanding. The additional benefit was that I was prepared for many of Mrs. Apostle’s objections because I had already read them, then read the answer and the scriptural support of that answer.
RPA —
It’s a valid point and I agree, some Christians do profit from published correction of error. On those occasions when it is corrected — which is not often in this world. You are advanced at understanding, others not so much
On balance I think more damage is done to the neophyte Christian by reading, and then often accepting, interpretive error, as such error is today pervasive and indeed the norm. Especially error that is at the very heart of the lessons of Scripture, and at the heart of the modern world’s chief plague — the works of the tsah-rah, and the collusion of men (including Christian men) with those works.
Full disclosure: my comment is partly personal bias. I usually skip the comments of RichardP, as I recall him from prior days as a distraction, nuisance, and lost guide. I wearied of correcting him then and I’m not going through it again.
The hierarchy God -> Man -> Wife -> Children is too harsh on the children. If you have sons, they should be placed above Wife, especially once they turn 14 years of age.
— Catxman
https://www.catxman.wordpress.com
Catxman,
Where do you find the basis for that belief? I haven’t heard that before associated with the age of 14. I’m curious where that comes from.
RichardP,
“Eve’s “submission” lay in doing what she was created to do … This “submission” thing, created by God in the creating of her to be a help, has nothing to do with salvation.”
I’ll clarify that I believe, that by definition, being in submission to her own husband isn’t to be confused with doing whatever is right or performing her natural intended purpose, it consists of submitting to doing what she is told to do by her husband or knows to do because it is well pleasing to her husband. God has told wives to obey their husbands in everything. (The only time there can be any question about whom the wife is to obey, would be in the situation where the husband is clearly asking the wife to violate a command of God’s, that would be considered a greater sin than not submitting to her husband. And whether the wife should obey her husband’s command to commit a great sin is a topic of much debate. I’m personally not really sure where I’d draw the line at this point.)
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies [dedicating all of yourselves, set apart] as a living sacrifice, holy and well-pleasing to God, which is your rational (logical, intelligent) act of worship.
As you can see in the verse above, women are to present their earthly bodies as a living sacrifice, and to do what is well pleasing to the Lord, and for women this is carried out here on earth by performing this, according to the direction of God, for their earthly husband, who is their earthly lord (as holy Sarah rightly acknowledged in 1 Peter 3:6) and the husband is the image or likeness of Christ in relation to the wife, who images the church.
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Men truly are the likenesses of God here on earth.
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I think most of what you’ve said, RichardP, is reacting to a “strawman” and not reacting to anything I believe. I believe women are offered the same grace of salvation that men are, women can pray to and hear from God. Just like in a chain of command, the Private and the General may still communicate directly even though there are people in between them in the normal chain of command. I believe Thedeti was stating the general rule, while you are stating exceptions to that standard. Hopefully You don’t believe that, there being some communication flexibility within the chain of command, or God’s authority overriding a subordinate’s authority, negates God’s institution of Patriarchy or 1 Corinthians 11:3?
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 I permit not a woman to teach, neither to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding, through bearing of children she shall be saved, if they continue in faith, and love, and holiness with modesty.
Even if a woman is disrespectful of her husband and not reverent of him like Ephesians 5:33 commands her to be towards her husband, he, her husband, even if he is “the least of these”, still stands in the place of Christ, and how she treats him reflects her faithfulness to Christ and to the established order of Christ’s kingdom. The verses above seem to teach that If a wife does not continue in faithfulness to God and her husband, by bearing him children as women were created to do, in love for God and her husband, in sanctity/holiness to God and her husband, and maintain her modesty/self-control/sobriety for her husband and God, then I don’t think she is saved. Yes there may be exceptions, if the man doesn’t want children or if they are infertile, but the intent needs to be there for her to serve her God created purpose to be a help and a mate to the man she married. So, in a very real way, a wife’s submission does have to do with her salvation. Her works are the evidence of her real faithfulness, and we are all saved by grace through faith, and faith without works is dead.
If you want to know how submitted a wife is to Christ, you don’t need to look any further than how submitted she is to her husband.
Catxman,
I believe in God’s holy patriarchy. And I believe that a wife and a man’s sons, belong to, and are an extensions of, himself, and are his agents. A man delegates tasks to his wife and to his children. Children are to obey their father and mother.(Ephesians 6:1) The wife, being subject to the husband in everything, is to be the agent of the husband, and is to assist him in childrearing. The children belong to their father, and ideally he launches them out into this world like arrows headed in the way they should go, if his patriarchy hasn’t been infringed upon, or the children haven’t willfully been led astray.
Psalm 127:3 Lo, sons are a heritage from the Lord,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man
are the sons of one’s youth.
5 Happy is the man who has
his quiver full of them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
The wife is always the husband’s property, and she is one flesh with him, so her sons have no right to boss her around.
Ephesians 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
When a son starts his own family, then he is to leave his parents, so that he can become the authority figure in his own home.