I have a topic that I’d like to discuss, and I’ll use myself as the example, because I haven’t heard any other discussion on the topic. I was reading over at Σ Frame when the question of a virgin young man’s sexual compatibility with any potential wife came up.
I myself for whatever reason never worried about my sexual compatibility, so I would never have thought to bring the topic up. Although I’m blessed, I presumed that, if a baby’s head can come out of a woman’s baby maker, I’m pretty certain my penis will fit in. Now perhaps I’m not talking about the same aspect of sexual compatibility that was in question, but here is what happened to me.
The baseline.
Prior to marriage I had looked at pornography. I found I liked breasts of all shapes and sizes, I really did like them all, whatever preferences I had were pretty minimal. I also looked at vaginas, I found them interesting, while a little strange looking, but there too, I didn’t have any real strong preferences, except that they not be shaved bald and look just like a young child’s crotch.
I met my wife online, and was almost “in love” before I physically met her. When I did first meet her I was pleasantly suprised, that although she didn’t look exactly like her profile picture, she actually looked better than her online photo. Long story short – I fell in love, and married her.
I had never had sex until with my wife. When I first saw her breasts, I didn’t recall seeing many exactly like that, but I liked them. And when I first saw her vagina, well, it was a vagina, as good as any other vagina.
Somehow I got imprinted.
Due to my wife’s intimacy-anorexia she intentionally distances me, she withholds sharing emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy as part of her behavioral addiction. And so it was, that bereft of much sex with my wife, and let down by churches who refused to help, I turned back to pornography. But, to my surprise, I didn’t want to see just any breasts like before. I found myself looking for breasts that looked exactly like my wife’s breasts, and the more they looked like my wife’s breasts, the more I preferred them. I also had grown to appreciate vaginas a lot more, but the absolute best vaginas looked exactly like my wife’s vagina.
I wasn’t intentionally trying to find models that looked like my wife, I just gradually came to notice that I now strongly preferred everything to look exactly like how she looked. I now strongly prefer my wife’s size of nipples, the size and color of her areolas, the size and shape of her breasts. I also strongly prefer the size, shape, color, and texture of her pussy lips. I’m sorry, but I just do now. Apparently I imprinted on her sexually, and she is now what I just strongly prefer.
Anyhow, I’m not sure how this happened. I haven’t got the foggiest idea. I’m not even sure why I imprinted. Was it an act or blessing of God? Is it natural? Was it an act of will, that I chose to love her as she was, and it solidified? Had I perchance been blessed to marry somebody perfectly matching some subconscious preferences that I had been previously unaware of? Does this happen to others? I don’t know.
It gets worse.
My wife got pregnant twice during our marriage, and as she first began exhibiting the look of pregnancy, I began to love that look. I knew she was pregnant before she did. One day she wondered aloud if she was possibly pregnant, and without even thinking I just blurted out, yes, your boobs have changed. Anyhow, I began to love everything about the look of pregnancy as my wife exhibited it. And perhaps thanks to powerful pregnancy hormones overpowering my wife’s intimacy-anorexia the last two trimesters of both my wife’s pregnancies were the most regular sex I ever got. Anyhow, I sort of have a thing for pregnant women now, and I had never found them attractive before my wife first got pregnant. But now they’re just radiant and sexy to me, and I don’t know how to make it stop.
In the gif at the top of the story, the duckling has become imprinted on the dog. The duckling wants to follow along and be with the dog, but the dog is not imprinted on the duckling. Because of my wife’s intimacy-anorexia, there were some aspects of our marriage that were painfully like that gif, with me being the duckling.
Imprinting is what we do to newborn foals, especially in the racing industry.
It’s very common for pregnant women to want more sex due to the hormonal surge.
It’s also incredibly common for men to find pregnant women erotic. Apparently, pregnancy porn is a thing, and searches for it online have gone up by 20% since 2014. The term “pregnant” is the 107th most popular porn search in America.
The above stats are from Google.
In researching these fascinating statistics, I read one study which found that pregnancy is the porn of choice for conservative Christian men.
Sharkly,
The specific attraction to your wife’s body is natural and a feature of marriage designed by God. Some refer to this as, “wife goggles”.
Wives that initiate divorce throw this away.
Ace and Bee,
That is good information! Maybe I’m not such an “odd duck”, but somewhat typical. I apparently have never really heard the term “wife goggles” explained.
Ace,
Good statistics. And you’re fulfilling your role as a Kiwi. Which is to make the rest of us seem normal!
I wonder what the connection is between pregnancy appreciation and conservative Christian men?
I also wonder if my wife’s intentional rationing and then deprivation of sex from me created a weaker imprint, or more unmet hunger, or how the poor frequency of sex affects the strength of the imprint.
The opposite of imprint is tearing asunder. It’s difficult to read your trials and not get upset with a wife and church that is doing the tearing asunder. To state the obvious, it shouldn’t be that way.
With all the hardships and pain of life, there wasn’t enough for your wife apparently, she wanted a long drawn out divorce to add to it. And the church, instead of reconciling you two, has enabled the violence instead of drawing on and building off of the imprinting.
With all the hardships and pain of life, there wasn’t enough for your wife apparently, she wanted a long drawn out divorce to add to it.
i’m guessing Mrs. Sharkly is getting a LOT of positive reinforcement – or at least the kind of reinforcement that feeds *her,* by dragging this out. if she ends it, she loses all that reinforcement that she’s addicted to.
Swanny River,
Yeah, I just have to remind myself, that there are men who have it even worse than I do. Wayfaring Man sounds like he is one of those men.
Ame,
You are exactly right. She will never have more usurped power over my life and the lives of the kids than she has right now in the middle of a divorce. Yet a good wife who is meek and works to bond with her husband has a much easier time of getting her husband to do the things that please her. But being godly is unthinkable to those beguiled by Satan’s feminist lies.
she will pay for that, Sharkly, and pay dearly. you may never see it, but she will.
Yet a good wife who is meek and works to bond with her husband has a much easier time of getting her husband to do the things that please her.
for a mentally healthy husband ???? … seriously, i almost feel manipulative with the power i have over my husband when i submit to him and treat him with respect because he’s so grateful and willing to do things that please me. my first husband, though, when i was kind to him and did for him, he always thought i had an ulterior motive, so i was always double-checking myself to make sure i didn’t, even though that didn’t matter to him b/c he was gonna believe what he was gonna believe.
– – –
you wrote, and works to bond with her husband … i think that is very important and often completely missed in our culture.
it takes work to bond with someone … and it takes work to maintain that bond through the ebb and flow of life.
we’re told to follow our feelings … to follow our gut … to do what feels right, etc. trying to keep women ‘happy’ is catering to their feelings.
however, no where in the bible does it tell a woman to follow her feelings … to only respect her husband if she ‘feels’ like it (or if he’s earned it) … to only submit to her husband if she feels like it (or if he’s earned it), etc.
so that means that women have to do these things even when they don’t feel like it, especially when they don’t feel like it, with a good attitude that they don’t feel.
and what that means is that often a woman will feel like she’s lying when she’s treating her husband with respect or submitting to him with a good attitude when she doesn’t feel respectful or happy with her husband.
this probably doesn’t make sense to men b/c men know that they do what needs to be done regardless of how they feel – actually, i’m guessing that feelings don’t come into play at all, or very little, when a man gets up and goes to work everyday because that’s what needs to be done.
we need to get back to teaching girls and women that we do what is right, what God has directed us to do, with a good attitude, regardless of how we feel.
Sorry to hijack your blog, Sharkly. But this bit here: “so that means that women have to do these things even when they don’t feel like it, especially when they don’t feel like it, with a good attitude that they don’t feel.and what that means is that often a woman will feel like she’s lying when she’s treating her husband with respect or submitting to him with a good attitude when she doesn’t feel respectful or happy with her husband.” (From Ame, above) is what I struggle with the most. Sometimes, my husband can be an absolute dick. He’s been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, and honestly, sometimes he is just a dick. And it’s SO HARD to treat him respectfully then, because in all honesty, when he’s being a dick I DON’T respect him. I’m more likely to be disgusted by him. It *does* feel like I’m lying when I’m respectful to him then (although I’m not always respectful – I’m not a very good actor) and I often wait for him to earn my respect back. He always does, eventually, but until he does, it’s not always pleasant.
Sharkly – I have no idea what the deal is with conservative Christian men liking pregnancy porn. But I have noticed these same men are very outspoken when it comes to things like abortion. They conveniently forget their sin (pornography) and are very focused on the sins of others. I do find it interesting though, that you’re implying I’m not normal because I’m a Kiwi (and because I googled porn statistics when bored) but you have just announced your pornography preferences to all and sundry on the internet. Is that the normal thing to do, in America? I mean, I’m not normal. Normal people scare me. But again, I’m not the one announcing my odd porn preferences on the world wide web. Maybe this is just a cultural difference that I will never understand.
Ace,
Sorry to hijack your blog …
Actually my blog is intended to help people, to discuss matters and problems and theories and solutions, sometimes to let them vent, and especially to hear opinions that vary from the status quo. I don’t stay “on topic” either, because I don’t feel like we are limited to what topics we discuss with the exception of specific threats of violence, which WordPress frowns on. Also, try to treat others how you would want to be treated yourself.
As for your husband, between the addiction and the personality disorder that you report, that would definitely make things harder. But, that’s exactly what you’re supposed to do then, work harder. This life is a test of our faith. We are saved by God’s grace through our faith. So don’t fail the test, stay faithful to God, by staying faithful to your husband, even if he doesn’t follow the Bible, or isn’t normal psychologically.(Typical Kiwi, LOL)
I was just teasing you before about being a Kiwi. Kiwis have done some pretty amazing stuff, but none of that was accomplished by being normal. Most of it was accomplished by Kiwis with an obsession for what they were trying to do. I wasn’t referring to your sharing porn statistics. I thought that was quite helpful for us non-Kiwis who don’t have them memorized.
No, most normal Americans wouldn’t share their pornography preferences on the internet, and even of those who do share them, I’m probably one of the few who can legitimately say that I did it in hopes it might somehow spur discussion that is spiritually gainful to someone. I have never wanted to be average, or normal. I do sometimes try to become more balanced, more moderate, but even then I could be making a mistake by compromising my eccentricity.
I feel that our moral authority comes from God, via the Bible.(sometimes through our conscience) So everybody is free and even encouraged to condemn abortion and every other sin. Hypocrisy is when a person condemning a particular sin feels like it is OK for them to do the same thing they condemn others for. But even the apostle Paul “the chief of sinners” was inspired by God to write his epistles rightfully condemning many lesser sins than what he himself had committed. And he even rightfully condemned his own past sins, after he switched sides and opposed them.
But isn’t pornography a grave sin? How is it spiritually gainful to share your porn preferences, yet you disagree on Jack’s thread that Scott and Roosh’s sexual sin is spiritually gainful? You’ve presented your use of porn as understandable and necessary in light of your marital difficulties, but doesn’t every sinner have an understandable and necessary reason to engage in their particular sin? Since our Lord says lusting after a woman not your own is adultery, do porn users deserve the death penalty as fornicators do?
(From Ame, above) is what I struggle with the most. Sometimes, my husband can be an absolute dick. He’s been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, and honestly, sometimes he is just a dick. And it’s SO HARD to treat him respectfully then, because in all honesty, when he’s being a dick I DON’T respect him. I’m more likely to be disgusted by him. It *does* feel like I’m lying when I’m respectful to him then (although I’m not always respectful – I’m not a very good actor) and I often wait for him to earn my respect back. He always does, eventually, but until he does, it’s not always pleasant.
Ace – i totally get it. i know it’s hard.
let me share a little story with you …
all my life, from the time i was 4 years old, i wanted to be a wife and mother. when i was around 20 (when i was engaged to my first husband) i realized that i needed to forgive my mom before i became a mom so i could be a good mom. so i started praying and working on forgiving her. in my sexual abuse recovery group we learned about forgiveness that the depth of the offense determines the length-of-time needed to work through forgiving them. ten years later i was able to fully forgive my mother. i was 30 years old, still married to my first husband, no kids yet, and went to a women’s retreat. the speaker was this beautiful older woman who had grown up in the most beautiful, godly home, with a beautiful, godly mother … ‘all-the-things’ i had so longed for. and i broke and couldn’t stop crying – this was a huge deal because i never cried. never. after she spoke i was propelled out of my seat to speak to her – another huge deal for me … i never, ever did anything like that. through sobs all i could say was, “I forgave my mother.” and her reply? this godly woman who grew up with the most beautiful, godly mother? she said to me, “I had to forgive my mother, too.”
that, right there, changed my life. i thought it was b/c my mother was terrible that she needed forgiving, but i learned that ALL of us need forgiving, and that regardless of how perfect a mother i hoped to be someday, i would still need forgiving.
“so that means that women have to do these things even when they don’t feel like it, especially when they don’t feel like it, with a good attitude that they don’t feel.and what that means is that often a woman will feel like she’s lying when she’s treating her husband with respect or submitting to him with a good attitude when she doesn’t feel respectful or happy with her husband.”
while your situation is extreme, and i really do know what that’s like b/c i lived it not only for the 20 years we were married, but also till he died even after he left us … b/c we had children together … and were forever connected … and he continued to hurt our children in terrible ways causing physical, mental, and emotional damage to our children …
the truth is that all women will have times when they don’t feel like it and need to do these things anyway, with a good attitude, and will feel like she’s lying. there are probably a few, who were raised in just the right home, who have just the right personality, and are married to just the right kind of man, who don’t struggle with this … or who learned early to do so naturally. idk. but i think that this is a struggle we women have … that it’s our nature to want what we want when we want it … and we have to submit to the authority of Christ, and allow Him to do this through us.
i am not minimizing what you’re going through or experiencing … and i am not glossing over how extremely hard it is to face this continuously, every day, without end, and without hope of it getting better. just … it’s something all of us wives struggle with in our marriages.
Ame – thank you. You have helped me immensely.
Sharkly – I was actually thinking about a particular person when I mentioned abortion and porn. I don’t know him personally, but I read a letter he wrote to a men’s dirty magazine where he was then interviewed, and his hypocrisy exposed. He was a very vocal advocate against abortion. He did nothing to help young women facing unwanted pregnancies and had no interest in adopting these unwanted babies. But he liked porn. A lot. One pornstar in particular was his favourite. She got pregnant. Her birth control failed. She was a heavy drinker, smoker and drug user. She feared she had harmed her unborn baby and was unable to provide it with a decent life. She had an abortion. This man was very loudly, publicly critical of her decision. Yet she got pregnant to her porn co-star, who also encouraged the abortion, while they were making a movie to slake the lusts of this old horndog.
Personally, I believe that no porn user should be against abortion, because porn is part of the problem in our sex-crazed culture. If everyone only had sex within the confines of marriage, there would be no abortion. But by watching porn, the users contribute to the demand of it, and also contribute to normalising casual sex – which often leads to abortions.
I’m not judging porn users. I’ve watched it myself. Yes it’s a sin, like many other things, and we’re all sinners. But if watchers of porn think they are not inadvertently contributing to abortions, they’re deluding themselves.
Eavan and Ace,
You ladies raise some good questions that I’d like to address. To fully address them would take a lot of writing, so I’ll address things briefly at first, and then you can query me further with your questions.
Eavan,
First off, maybe I should have stated it more clearly in the original post. I do not recommend or endorse pornography usage by anybody. I have gained nothing from all my time spent looking at pornography. Although I may have learned some tidbits of knowledge, it isn’t anything that a person needs to know, and if I had spent my time on any other activity, I’d have surely learned many more applicable things. It was time entirely wasted. Pornography has not improved my marriage, and in fact my honest confession has been used by my wife to justify further destroying my marriage. I am not sharing about my porn viewing to normalize the practice, but just as a backdrop as to how I noticed that I had in fact become sexually imprinted by my wife.
I presented my porn viewing as understandable, but not as necessary. 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 is evidence that God also understands that a lack of sex will lead most into temptation. While much temptation is understandable, there is no sin that is necessary.
In Matthew 5, our Lord did not say that lusting was adultery, or that those who lust should face the death penalty that God gave for adultery. He was telling us that we all have lust, which is the root of adultery, already in our hearts. We all have hatred, which is the root of murder, already in our hearts.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. …
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus was explaining that even the pious Pharisees who thought themselves to have kept all the law, could not measure up to the holy standard of God, and that we all would need to repent, even of the wickedness in our hearts which is offensive to God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
In Matthew 5, Jesus was not saying that His followers with sex drives should literally gouge their eyes out, he was pointing out the impossibility of a human with eyes, and hands, and a tongue, of meeting God’s holy standard, and all people’s need to repent and be redeemed.
Lust, which is a fruit of the flesh, is in all of us, and it is not a capital sin, but the first step down the stairway to death.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The Bible doesn’t talk a lot about sexual images, even though archeology shows that nude statues, mosaics, and frescos would have been pretty common in Jesus day. Our God is a God of both justice and mercy, while His mercy is still available. Many sins have degrees, like how our own system of justice has degrees of murder. Drinking wine is not even sinful, and Jesus drank, but yet drunkenness is clearly called sinful, and often leads to worse acts. And if Jesus himself was accused of being a drunkard and a glutton, we should not be surprised if we get accused far beyond our own actions. I think there are certainly degrees of sin with regard to lust. If I saw a naked woman by accident, and liked what I saw, that would not even be a sin. However, some people will elect to use porn, romance novels/movies,(chick-porn) or online affairs, in place of the natural use of their mate, and some go so far as using these things to the exclusion of their mates. Those uses are clearly a sin against their mate, and their Creator. And some people end up habitually in bondage and addicted. And many people have their thinking warped.
The Bible never said anybody deserved the death penalty for lust, like it clearly prescribed for its offspring sins of adultery and some fornication.
Ace,
This man who openly promotes Porn, but is very against abortion, has religious beliefs that may seem to be incongruous, but He is able to be opposed to abortion without being a hypocrite, unless he is somehow saying that it is OK for him to participate in abortion while others shouldn’t. I understand that you are opposed to the evils of the porn industry, but are you saying that all those who have looked at porn should not be morally allowed to be against abortion? I’m used to you making better sense.
@Ace
I’m OK with porn, I don’t see it as a sin or a problem. It only becomes a sin when you would rather watch porn then have sex with your partner
Sharkly – No I’m not saying that everyone who uses porn should not oppose abortions. That is daft. What I am talking about is a unique case where the abortion was a direct result of pornography, that this man very enthusiastically participates in. This man didn’t seem to understand that his (and others) demand for porn, from this particular pornstar, directly contributed to her decision to terminate an unwanted pregnancy that happened on set, while filming a movie to entertain this man (and others). He was very vocal that this woman should not have had an abortion. Except that he was supporting the very reason that she ended up pregnant in the first place.
He was also not taking into account that this woman was a junkie. She had used heavy drugs in the first stage of her pregnancy, because she was unaware. Not only was this woman incapable of caring for a baby (her words) but she also feared that her baby would not be adopted into a loving home and given a decent chance at life because there was a good chance her baby had been damaged by drugs. I guess to be a pornstar, you’ve had a fairly hard life, and may not know the good side of humanity.
Does that make sense now?
I’m also saying that all users of porn also need to be aware what the ramifications of the porn industry are, and accepting that they are contributing to these evils by continuing to ensure there is demand for porn. Human trafficking, sex slaves etc. are a direct result of porn. Promiscuity is an indirect result of it – or rather, the normalisation of promiscuity is an indirect result of porn. And, as a result, abortions. Very few abortions happen within the confines of marriage.
It’s like me campaigning about the cruelty inherent in the dairy industry – the forced impregnation of the dairy cows, taking away their babies and sending them off to slaughter…. all the while continuing to enjoy drinking milk and encouraging my 16 year old son in his dairy farming career. It doesn’t make sense. I *do* drink milk, and I *do* encourage my 16 year old son in his dairy farming career, so I *don’t* campaign against the cruelty. I know it exists, and I accept that the choices I make are contributing to it, but I also understand that there isn’t a better way of getting dairy products.
To eat dairy, we understand we are contributing to cruelty.
To watch porn, we understand that we are contributing to human trafficking and sex slavery etc.
Feministdestroyer – Do you have scripture to back up your point of view? Where in the Bible does it say pornography is okay as long as you don’t cast aside your wife and spend time with your computer and hand instead?
I believe the Bible is very clear that pornography is a sin. But Sharkly’s explanation of it above is very good. Many sins/temptations are understandable. All of us fall into sin and temptation. But it doesn’t make it right, and it does mean that we need to repent and God shows us mercy when we do.
Ace,
“If everyone only had sex within the confines of marriage, there would be no abortion.”
False; some married women get abortions.
Sharkly: I am not actually confused about the meaning of Matthew 5. I’m confused about the inconsistency between your challenge to Scott and Jack regarding fornication and your rather flippant attitude about the gravity of porn.
They’re not just images – they’re daughters and sons of men and creations of holy God used to enslave people to their sexual appetites.
Bee – You are right. Some married women do get abortions. But what I was more getting at (but wasn’t clear on) was the change that would happen to society if promiscuity was no longer socially acceptable.
If sex outside of marriage didn’t happen, abortions would almost certainly not be socially acceptable.
New Zealand government is voting on the topic of abortion right now. Each MP is casting a conscience vote and so far, the overwhelming majority have voted to expand the abortion laws and remove it from the Crimes Act. It isn’t law yet, there are still a couple more readings to go, but it’s looking like it will get through.
But really, what else would we expect from a country that legalised gay marriage years ago, allows teenagers to obtain birth control free of charge through school without their parents knowledge or consent, has an unmarried Prime Minister living with her partner and child, and has changed the relationship property act to mean that all couples who have lived together for two years or more are treated as a married couple as far as relationship property division goes.
That is more my point. A society that only accepts sex within the confines of marriage would be far less likely to accept abortion. Sadly, I can’t see it ever happening.
@Ace
Don’t presume to speak for the bible when you don’t know enough about the subject material, except the Feminist anti-porn drivel we so often here.
The bible is very clear that the definition of sin is the transgression of the LAW. Do you want to show me where in the law that porn is mentioned. Go on I dare ya
Stop making things as sins that are not sins. And to say that the consumption of porn supports the sex slave industry is nothing but anti porn, feminist, prudish garbage with no evidence whatsoever
Eavan and Ace,
Thanks for clearing things up a little, now I’ll give you a bit of my personal view. Hopefully I won’t stumble anybody with what I am going to say, we each are responsible to live according to God’s word and also our conscience.(Romans 14) Some folks like feministdestroyer don’t see porn as being sinful. I’m sure however, that he probably has a few more qualifiers on what he believes is OK, than what he has so far stated. “Biblical Gender Roles” who is linked on my sidebar has gone into great detail in putting forward and documenting his basis from the Bible for believing that some porn viewing is not sinful. He goes as far as to say that porn may be a way of escape from sexual temptation to commit fornication or adultery.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I have read some of BGR’s stuff, and while I currently don’t go as far as he does, I also see that most of the lambasting of men who look at porn, is done with lurid tales, but little scripture. Scripture really doesn’t seem to bother to directly mention avoiding pornographic images, even though the Bible does very clearly rail against the grave sins that physical sex acts are. Sex is not a taboo subject in the Bible, and The Bible makes clear what is not allowed. Any prohibition drawn from the Bible against viewing pornographic images, is an “application” of scripture, there is not a direct command prohibiting viewing pornographic images. An example of a verse that I have used in the past is:
Psalms 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
You have to start by defining the pornographic image as a wicked thing, to make the verse apply, like one person might define meat given to an idol as wicked. And that verse is not a command, but the psalmist describing his own zeal to be righteous. There is also debate about how far until appreciation changes to lust, and how far can lust be indulged before it conceives and brings forth sin, and even what constitutes the Biblical definition of lust. BGR claims the sin of lust involves actually planning to take what is not yours. My point being, that if viewing pornographic images is a sin, and I would think that in most cases it probably is, it certainly isn’t one of the bigger ones that we are so clearly warned against.
So why do preachers rail against men looking at porn, while defrauding wives frivolously tearing their homes apart, and thereby blaspheming the gospel, get sympathy and excuses made for their selfish acts. Because the apostate church is Satan’s great whore, and lowering the women they worship,(like porn often does) is blasphemy to them. Men were created preeminent to rule over women. The first sin in this world by a man, was the sin of letting a woman tell him what to do. But women continue to satanically use sex to beguile, manipulate, and control men. An evil single woman will freely give sex to manipulate and control men. In keeping with how Satan inverts all the good God intended, An evil wife’s most successful manipulative tool to control her husband is the denial of sex. And porn provides an uncomplicated escape, by which the defrauded husband can thereby endure and defeat her abuse of their marriage, and defeat her sexually immoral ploy for usurping further control from her God-appointed head.
The constant demonization of porn is mostly just Feminist bellyaching benefitting sexually immoral women who, for the purpose of usurping their husbands, want to enforce a complete sexual blockade against their husbands, denying them even masturbation to a two dimensional fantasy image, because that picture is going to be a helper to their husband while the cuckolding cunts want their husbands completely cut off from what they covenanted to them before God.
There I said it.
Now I understand some of you women are on the receiving end of a damaged marriage, where your husband has used porn, to defraud you and who knows what other evil, and as such, you are going to be hating porn. I get that. But please understand that the reason that 1/3rd of the internet is porn, isn’t because of a few sex addicts and a few people with personality disorders, it is because there is also a much bigger problem with people being sexually deprived by their spouses, and by women deferring marriages so they can ride the devil’s cock-carousel for a decade, both of those problems being empowered by our Feminism tainted culture.
And the histrionic implications that I have empowered the sex slave trade, and consented to the abuse of dairy animals, unfortunately doesn’t move me. My great grandma would have thought each of you a Hollywood whore for owning a TV, or, God forbid! attending a movie, for the exact same reason, your participation contributes. Just living in the world makes you a participant in all manner of wickedness, especially in this adulterous generation. So we are all going to need redemption from sins we don’t even know about. I didn’t know Buttercup!(the dairy cow) I swear I didn’t know until today! And I don’t think I can return a half drunk container of milk to the store. Will it make it better if I spill the rest and cry over it? But, I’ve heard not to, oh I’m so perturbed.
We would do better to focus our attention on removing the clearly greater sexual sins from the church and then society, that God says there shouldn’t be among Christians. Asking my Christian brothers to stop talking of their past fornication as so uplifting and positively developmental, is not anything I need to shrink back from. And in the original post, I did not try to portray my porn usage as positively developmental, contributing to my maturity, or part of what led me to Christ.
Some might even want to label me as a fornicator, but, I regret the things I did, greatly. They were nothing but stupid. I kick myself every time I think of some of the stupid things I did. And as I grow older, I only grow more ashamed of the foolish sins of my youth. And I have a hard time understanding why others seemingly exalt their transgressions against God. I’d give anything to undo some of my foolishness, and it pains me that I have these blots on my name. My sin bothers me badly. Yes, I know it is forgiven, but at how great a cost! I’m not trying to be hypocritical telling others to try to mention their remorse for their sin instead of wearing it like a badge of honor. Perhaps when I told fornicators to show more remorse, I also triggered something inside you. I meant to do that! Say what you want, I don’t ever want to let a Christian brother glory in any past or present wickedness.
“I don’t ever want to let a Christian brother glory in any past or present wickedness.”
I agree. It bothers me greatly the number of sin apologists in the so-called manosphere, including those that write apologies for porn. Seriously, do you think Christ would have looked at porn? Do you think he would have said it’s just images and exists because men are defrauded? Did Christ see woman that way? That is just nonsense. I have innumerable stories of wives defrauded by porn who were NOT defrauding their husbands.
As for BGR, he is clearly a false teacher on many fronts and shockingly callous to the needs of women. He bends Scripture to make it say what suits him, so I reject his teaching.
Also, in multiple conversations at this site, Ace has been encouraged to maintain perfect submission and respect, but when we start talking about suffering husbands, porn is on the table for them to relieve their suffering. “Pray harder, submit more” to Ace. “Bible says I can porn” to men. The double standard is disgusting.
Ace,
“A society that only accepts sex within the confines of marriage would be far less likely to accept abortion.”
I agree with you on this. Sexual sins are inter-related far reaching. Society was not able to stop with just fornication. The slippery slope is real.
Feministdestroyer – You would be surprised to learn just how much I know about the subject material. I have friends in the sex industry, both working in brothels and some who make movies both here in New Zealand and overseas. My husband also has acquaintances in the “underground” – several of whom are pimps (yes, we still have them here, even though sex work is legal. Most of the women ‘owned’ by these pimps are foreigners on temporary visas and not allowed to work legally). So you could say my knowledge of the subject material is actually quite extensive.
I’m actually not totally against it though – my husband and I sometimes find it quite useful to spice up our sex life. And as I’m not defrauding him, he never has the need to watch it alone.
Clearly, you’re a different type of Christian to me, or perhaps not a Christian at all, so maybe you will interpret these verses differently, but here are a few that make it clear to me that porn is a sin: (obviously the word porn is not mentioned because it wasn’t in use then, but the theme of sexual immorality is strong. And what could be more sexually immoral than watching two unmarried people fornicating in the most compromising of ways?)
1 Corinthians 6:9, 13, 18-20
Colossians 3:5
Ephesians 5:3
Galatians 5:19-21
Hebrews 13:4
Sharkly – I don’t own a TV. Nor do I go to the movies. It’s pretty much impossible, with Tourette’s. My tics can be noisy at times and I don’t wish to disturb the other movie-goers. So your Grandma would have nothing to complain about there. I do like to read, though. I read widely. Everything from erotic romance novels to Wilbur Smith adventure stories and I’m quite partial to westerns, so perhaps your Grandma would disapprove. There’s guns and fighting and killing in some of them.
Eavan – You raise some good points about the difference in attitudes towards men and women on here. As in, women have to just submit more, but watching porn (for men) isn’t sinful. But really, what else would you expect on a blog such as this?
@Sharkly
That was a very good answer. There is much I agree with in your comment ????
I do not recommend or endorse pornography usage by anybody. I have gained nothing from all my time spent looking at pornography. Although I may have learned some tidbits of knowledge, it isn’t anything that a person needs to know, and if I had spent my time on any other activity, I’d have surely learned many more applicable things. It was time entirely wasted. Pornography has not improved my marriage, and in fact my honest confession has been used by my wife to justify further destroying my marriage.
– – –
There is also debate about how far until appreciation changes to lust, and how far can lust be indulged before it conceives and brings forth sin, and even what constitutes the Biblical definition of lust.
– – –
My point being, that if viewing pornographic images is a sin, and I would think that in most cases it probably is, it certainly isn’t one of the bigger ones that we are so clearly warned against.
– – –
i’m not going to get in the middle of the porn debate. i think the reality of how devastating it is from beginning to end is well documented, but i also believe that probably 90% or more of men, even (and probably especially) in the church, view porn on at least a somewhat regular basis. and probably at least that many women either read or look at porn on a regular basis – reading in the form of erotic novels whether they’re labeled erotic or not.
if it were not an issue, the numbers wouldn’t be so high.
and … fwiw … i do not think porn is a new thing … i think that, in some form or another, it has been around for forever. Sharkly mentioned images in Jesus’ day … but we don’t know who built those or why – were they for pagans? i can’t imagine christians creating nude or erotic art.
i think I Corinthians 6:18-20 is important:
we all need to be extremely careful with sexual immorality and anything that can lead to sexual immorality because it is a different kind of sin.
there is also a lot said in the bible about discipline and disciplining our minds. and i think this is where we all need to be concerned as it affects every area of our lives. here’s just one verse:
2 Timothy 1:7, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.”
the greek word for ‘sound mind’ is:4995. sóphronismos, and it means: Definition: self-control
Usage: self-control, self-discipline, prudence.
(https://biblehub.com/greek/4995.htm)
so we’re to discipline ourselves, including our minds.
i think some of our big questions to answer are:
1. Where is this leading? Where could it easily lead?
2. Does it cause another to sin?
James 1:14-15: “14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”
sin begins in our minds, with our desires.
so my great caution, with anything, would be to discipline ourselves to avoid the slippery slope … desire, drawn away, enticed, conceived, sin, death.
at what point do you feel ‘safe’ in that you can easily ‘stop’ yourself from being drawn away, enticed, and conceiving and birthing sin?
on whether what we do causes another to stumble or sin … i think we have to be very careful here not to go overboard both ways. on the conservative side, we could immobilize ourselves out of fear that everything we do causes another to sin … yet on the other side we can throw in the towel and just do whatever the heck we want b/c someone somewhere is going to use what i do as an excuse to sin, so i might as well enjoy myself. balance is crucial.
one other thought … the porn industry, like everything else, is based on supply and demand. if we assume this demand is male dominated, we are deceived.
Sharkly,
I think Leviticus 18 reveals that porn is sinful. Verses 6 – 19 give prohibitions about NOT uncovering someone else’s nakedness unless they are your spouse. But to the married, it says that their spouses nakedness belongs to them! Verse 16 is very clear, the wife’s nakedness belongs to her husband. So, God is ok with us looking at our spouse without any clothes. But porn is looking at the naked body of someone who is not our spouse.
Some would argue that the phrase, “uncover the nakedness ….” means having sexual intercourse, not looking at them naked, but I think this phrase means both; seeing them naked, and having sexual relations with them.
@Ace
You read erotic romance novels?
Lol, now you know why no man will take seriously any woman who condemns porn whilst they are turning themselves on sexually through the reading medium. The only difference between you and the rest of us is that YOU justify your sexual stimuli whilst simultaneously condemning men because porn is visual for us. I mean this respectfully but you’re a hypocrite.
I don’t justify my use of porn because it just IS, it’s a tool nothing more, I no more feel guilty for enjoying watching others have sex than eating an ice cream on a hot day, or you would feel when your senses and mind are stimulated by your erotic novels.
Also how would you know so much about the sex industry and pimps etc unless you are directly involved in some way or the other. I’m not judging, I’m just curious as to your cognitive dissonance here.
Yes I’m a born again Christian, and I see NO disconnect in watching porn to get my sexual needs met. Unlike others who are extremely lucky to enjoy sex, I’ll never have that opportunity, cursed to never feel a woman’s touch, or carress, never able to experience the exquisite joy of me being deep inside a woman, so yeah excuse me why I defend porn so strongly as watching others have sex is the closest I will ever get to the real thing.
Can you imagine living the rest of your life craving and aching to experience sexual unity with someone and cursed to never have that experience. Yup my life is fucked and I’m always 1 step away from committing suicide to end my aloneness
Yup my life is fucked and I’m always 1 step away from committing suicide to end my aloneness
aloneness is … like a dark, bottomless, abyss. ????
my daughter has been suicidal twice in her life … the first time in forth grade ???? . in her freshman high school english class, they got into a discussion on suicide. all the kids except her and another kid got all righteous against it. my daughter stood up for those who struggle with suicide against all the rest.
may God fill you with peace and comfort deep in the wells of your soul where only He can see and go.
Thank you Ame
Your words mean more to me than you will ever know ????????????????????????
(((hugs)))
i find it interesting the amazing, truly amazing, people in the bible who struggled with wanting to end their lives … and how God cared for them. i love how He does that. the hard part is believing that God is caring for us when there is absolutely no evidence to prove it that we can feel, see, touch, experience, or know. we just have to believe while we’re falling.
there are those who say we have to do our part so God will do His, but they have it backwards and all wrong. if God is GOD, then He is enough. if a person gets to live their whole lives not ever experiencing what it’s like to not be able to hold on anymore, they need to consider themselves blessed rather than condemn those of us who have been in places where there was no strength or ability to hold on any longer.
i don’t understand it all. i have many more questions than answers. i’ve lived through some very, very dark times in my life and been in seasons of being alone more than i wish. but i continue to force myself to choose to believe God IS. and to cry out to Him. and to beg and plead for Him to never let go of me because i can no longer hold on to anything.
I’m crying so hard right now ????
I’m going away to ponder your words.
Your kindness has truly touched me (( HUGS ))
Feministdestroyer – I don’t actually condemn men for watching porn – I did say at least once something to that effect. I also said that I watch it with my hubby on occasion. For what it’s worth, I also think reading erotic romance is sinful but ultimately, our sins are between us and the Lord.
I questioned your faith simply because I have never met a Christian who does not believe porn is sinful. I have met Christians who use it anyway, while acknowledging it’s a sin they struggle with, but you’re the first I’ve come across who doesn’t believe it’s a sin.
I know a lot about the sex industry because I have friends who are involved in it. Some of them are women I have known for years who chose this path intentionally, others went off the rails and ended up on that path. And, as I said, my husband is acquainted with some pimps (he is a druggie; not involved in the sex industry).
I, too, have been suicidal numerous times, including very recently. I broke. Completely. I’m still broken, a bit. So I do understand despair. That feeling of wretched helplessness is often close to me and I understand the need to do anything to not feel like that anymore.
If I had the answer to not feel like that ever again I would share it with you but alas, I don’t. I will pray for you, though, if that is okay.
there are a couple authors i love b/c reading their books gives me hope.
one of those is a male author: D.I. Telbat. his lead characters are men and very masculine. he is passionate about the persecuted church and his writing reflects that unashamedly.
his books are very popular among prison inmates, so he has had them printed in paperback just so they can be distributed in prisons.
i will re-read his books when i need encouragement of how big God is.
you will want to begin with The Coil Series.
here is a link to subscribe to his email updates, which i highly recommend b/c he is so encouraging and often sends short stories that are also very encouraging: https://ditelbat.us4.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=ce9d68d00ff93370053e7479a&id=e962890a94
here is a link to his website: https://books2read.com/ap/8NV7l8/DI-Telbat
and here is a link to his amazon author page: https://smile.amazon.com/D-I-Telbat/e/B004ULWX14?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1583381735&sr=8-1
@Ace
Thank you, I understand you better now and I see where you’re coming from. Yes your prayers for me will be very much appreciated (( HUGS))
@Bee
No, you’re wrong, Levitticus 18 and the expression “uncover thy nakedness” is a strict euphemism for sex. Every single case mentioned in that chapter is talking about relatives, cousins, step mums, etc. There is no mention whatsoever of “strangers” or thy neighbor so to use that passage as a case against porn not only fails but it’s disingenuous at best and poor hermeutics.
Women, especially Christian women cannot stand the Male gaze because of their insecurities and the secret desire to control male sexuality. To all that I say, get used to it, men were created to desire and look at beautiful attractive women, it ain’t a sin so it’s something you might just have to accept
I urge everyone to go read Levitticus 18 for themselves and see how Bee ???? had twisted the meaning of that chapter to fit her preconceived bias against male sexuality and to try and shame us for our God given sexual desire for women.
I will remind the refers here that the English word “lust” is NOT the same as our modern day English slang. The biblical word epithumea means TO COVET something. The truly sad thing is we’ve re-translated the word COVET in our minds to mean “sexual desire” or being “horny” which is a gross misuse of the Greek word epithumea (lust). That is why the scriptures can say that Jesus LUSTED in Luke 22:15 and yet we know that Jesus never sinned so how is that possible? Did he look with sexual desire at the Passover? No, it’s just that Christians automatically translate the word LUST as sexual desire when it’s not, it’s to covet what is not yours to have.
Paul told us to LUST (Covet) after spiritual gifts and to LUST after the office of a Bishop. The EXACT same Greek word for lust in Matthew 5 is used to describe lusting/coveting after the office of a Bishop. What, do you think that a man got horny wanting to be a Bishop? Of course not, but that’s the ridiculous mess Christians get into when they insist that the word LUST in the bible is a sexual thing when in 75% of the cases it shows up, it’s not.
The Israelites lusted after meat in the wilderness. What, do you think they saw some juicy steak and got so horny they needed to masturbate? Of course not, but that’s what happens when Christians insist that LUST =sexual desire when it’s not
Anyway thanks for the rant! This is a very brief summary of this topic, I’ve debated Greek scholars on this subject and bested them, and normally I go into way more detail than I did here, we’re talking over 20 pages lol
Seriously, do you think Christ would have looked at porn?
I think their was much nudity in Christ’s day that we don’t see today. He probably saw people stripped naked and beaten, people stripped naked and crucified, people displayed and sold to the highest bidder. There was obviously nude statues around from times past, and new nude statues being carved. And many nude mosaics and nude frescoes from the time still exist and more are being discovered. One can only assume there also existed more perishable nude art like paintings and drawings too. I’ve seen pornographic pottery even from well before the decadence of the Roman empire. The fact that the Bible so clearly and repeatedly condemns physical sex with people other than your spouse, but doesn’t really explicitly say much about explicit pictures or statues, shows that there is at least a great disparity in the degree of sin, if in fact viewing these things is done sinfully. Obviously Jesus did not sin, and he surely saw nudity and nude images. Clothing was a lot harder to come by back then. He told us to clothe the naked, not to close our eyes and run away. When Jesus said, “whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her”, he was saying it in a world where male and female slaves were sold publicly and their previous masters probably kept their valuable clothes. The soldiers that crucified Jesus split His clothes between themselves and cast lots for His vesture. In other cultures people bathe outdoors and stuff we’re not used to seeing. I don’t think the sin is in seeing, because Jesus had eyes, but the sin is that their is adultery already in human hearts, demonstrated when people look with the intent to lust after taking what is forbidden.
What bothers me is that Feminists and retarded churchians will demonize a sexually pure man’s God given sexual desire, and if it finally turns him temporarily to pornography due to his wife’s unfulfilled vows and his having been completely and intentionally sexually defrauded,(1 Corinthians 7:2-5) they turn his natural passion into an excuse for his wife to divorce him and make bastards of his children, even while she is continually having online affairs, denying him sex and telling him to masturbate, and yet taunting him about how she never denied other men, and saying she wishes he’d have an affair. Sound strange? That’s exactly my life. And those homewrecking firstborn of Satan who actually told my wife to deny me sexually, lie to me, steal my kids and run out on me, call me evil because I no longer pay them to attend their Sunday morning cunt-worshipping clubs.
feministdestroyer,
The correct way to interpret the Bible is to take the clear, straightforward reading as the truth. The exceptions to this are when the Bible is poetry, a parable, or future prophecy.
Leviticus is not one of Jesus’ parables, it is not poetry like Psalms, and Song of Songs, and it is not prophecy like parts of Daniel and Revelations. Therefore, the clear, straightforward reading of “uncover the nakedness” is the correct interpretation.
God is not a prude; God has no problem with a husband and wife looking at each other naked, and being naked together. But, porn gets us looking at women that are married, or will in the future be married, to someone else.
“To all that I say, get used to it, men were created to desire and look at beautiful attractive women, it ain’t a sin so it’s something you might just have to accept” I can look at a women with clothes on and tell that she is beautiful and attractive. I don’t need her to be naked to figure that out. My first wife was beautiful, I figured that out seeing her at church with her clothes on. (No, she did not dress like Sunday morning night club.) I never saw her naked until our wedding night. I was not disappointed.
I understand your situation is hard and difficult. BUT, as Christians we need to become conformed to God’s word and His ways, even when it is difficult. He is the potter, we are the clay.
Your rant about lust and coveting is a tangent, a side note. I have also studied the Greek word for lust in the New Testament and am aware that Jesus lusted to eat the Passover with his disciples. I do think it is possible to see a naked picture, a naked statue, a naked painting and not to lust. I don’t think Christians should spend lots, and lots of time, deliberately looking at naked pictures and/or videos. I also believe that fornication or adultery are much worse than porn.
@Bee
Thanks Bee, your comment here is much more balanced and like I’ve said before, I agree with you and others probably more than I disagree .
Yes, it is a contentious issue with strong views on both sides, and I don’t want to derail Sharkey’s thread so I’ll let it go ????
“I don’t want to derail Sharkly’s thread…”
I actually am quite grateful for all the discussion. People can always go back to the original topic of virgin imprinting if they want. It seems like controversy is often what makes the comments multiply, and pornography seems to be a pretty controversial topic in the Christian manosphere. Perhaps I may need to come up with some more posts addressing the topic, since it is so relevant to our current world. The churchians naturally like to beat the stuffing out of the porn strawman to the roar of their feminist crowd, without ever really exploring how women contribute to the secret popularity of porn even in their own ranks. Every man whose wife has them stuck turning to porn for an erotic moment, is cast as a deviant and an addict, while the real porn-addicts probably have defrauded wives that do want sex with them. Satan likes to invert God’s holy intention for all things, and sex has certainly been misappropriated by our feminist culture and the truth-hating whoring woman-worshipping false bride of Christ.
@Sharkly
Wow, I’m just blown away by your comment. You have hit the nail right on the head in a fair and balanced way where so many of us on that debate have failed
Sexless marriages is a real thing and the devastating impact it has on it is as destructive as an act of adultery, but everyone is too afraid to confront wives for “defrauding ” their husbands of his need for sex. Is it any wonder so many men are turning to porn
Porn is just a symptom, it’s not a cause of all our problems . …you satisfy a man’s needs sexually, the less he will need porn in his life
In so many ways we give porn too much power by making it such an obsession to quit. The more you tell guys to stop the more they watch it….but if you treat it as no big deal, you can take it or leave it, it ends up losing its hold over mankind and it finds its place in a man or woman’s world as just a tool, nothing more nothing less
Therefore, the clear, straightforward reading of “uncover the nakedness” is the correct interpretation.
Many English translations translate that phrase as “have sexual relations with”. And from my reading the term sounds like a permanent act, once done, not a momentary thing like literally lifting up their skirt. Sex forms a permanent union in the flesh according to the Bible. The phrase appears almost exclusively in Leviticus 18 & 20 which are both lists of sex sins, it is seemingly there to define and prohibit incest. I can’t see how Leviticus 18 & 20 are said to be referring to pornography, and it especially wouldn’t apply if the folks in the porn images are not your immediate family members.(Barf!)
With all due respect to Bee, he is dead wrong in his interpretation of Levitticus 18.
You are quite correct Sharkly, it’s talking about incest, nothing more nothing less and it’s an euphemism for the sex act itself, in no way can it be construed to be “looking” at the nakedness of someone, no matter how much the feminists and the anti porn crowd wish it to be so
“Many English translations translate that phrase as “have sexual relations with”.”
Some of the modern, paraphrase based, translations translate it like that. The NIV is one example. The NIV has also gone “gender neutral”. So, if you want to hang your hat on translations like the NIV, then you have lots of new feminist issues to confront!
More literal, word for word translations like the NASB, the Darby, and the KJV translate it correctly, as, “uncover the nakedness”.
Wrong, it is not just incest because it mentions the nakedness of some that are not blood relatives. Your uncle’s wife is not a blood relative, their are others.
If she is not your wife, then you should not be staring at her naked body.
I find it really interesting that you keep referring to the whole anti-porn attitude as feminist. Do you think it was feminists who started the anti-porn? Genuine question – I don’t know.
But I did read a great book once, historical fiction but based on real people and places back in mediaeval times. Ken Follett was the author. The reference list in the back of the book was extensive so it was clearly well researched. It followed the lives of a couple of different people – a stonemason who built cathedrals, and a priest. In reading that book, it was clear that it was the church (led by men – I think it was the very early Catholic church) who was very much against porn and the whole attitude then seemed to be that sex was taboo. Not just extra-marital sex, but all of it. Possibly because these people didn’t bother too much with privacy and just went at it wherever. I don’t know.
But I’ve researched a bit more and it does seem like it was the early Catholic church who started the whole sex-is-taboo thing, and porn would have followed on from that.
So that is where I’ve always thought it came from. Not from feminists, but from the Catholics.
As feminism is essentially about women having the freedom to make the best choices for them, it doesn’t make sense that feminism is against porn, because a number of women have chosen to work in the sex industry. Feminism has been about making the sex industry safer for women. Where do you all get the idea that feminism thinks porn is bad?
Bee wrote I think Leviticus 18 reveals that porn is sinful. Verses 6 – 19 give prohibitions about NOT uncovering someone else’s nakedness unless they are your spouse.
I am surprised at you Bee. Your summary of “NOT uncovering someone else’s nakedness unless they are your spouse” is completely false. I know you can do better brother. (Not being facetious; I truly want you to do better, as I know you can.)
Leviticus 18:6 starts off with “None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness”.
And then 18:6-18 gives about a dozen examples of these close relatives with whom you cannot see them sexually. (mother, daughter-in-law, aunt, etc.)
Verse 19 talks about not uncovering a woman who is menstruating.
Verse 20 talks about the physical act of adultery with a married woman.
None of the above has anything to do with seeing a naked woman who is not menstruating and also not my close relative, either through blood or marriage. So your summary of “unless they are your spouse” is incorrect.
As a general comment: As Sharkly wisely mentioned, Rom 14 warns against being a stumbling block to others, and to be careful of what you approve. If pornography, or the beach (bikinis) or a movie increase your likelihood of sinning, then by all means AVOID THEM. Matt 5:29-30. Obey Jesus’s words to cut that off from yourself, rather than somebody who is goading you to do something you know will lead you to sin.
But try to understand that my choice to go browsing in a store does to prove that I will then go on to commit the sin of covetousness. Maybe you would, and so you should seek to avoid this activity. But maybe your neighbour can go browsing and still not covet.
Try to understand that if a man catches a view of a naked woman, deliberately or not, this does not prove that he will fantasize about committing adultery with that woman (assuming she is married). Maybe you would, and so you should seek to avoid this activity. But maybe your neighbour can do this and still not lust for the act of adultery.
One area where pornography, or pretty much anything else, can be a problem is if it masters you. Whether pornography, wine, chocolate, movies, or whatever are sinful in and of themselves, we are warned to not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12-“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.
Someone above mentioned a second area — viewing pornography or reading romance novels, instead of being intimate with your spouse. Whether for these reasons or any others, depriving your spouse sexually is sinful; 1 Cor 7:1-9.
And what could be more sexually immoral than watching two unmarried people fornicating in the most compromising of ways?)
What could be more immoral? Easy. Disobeying any of the sexual laws that are actually in the Bible. Breaking any of God’s actual commands is more immoral than disobeying a command that is not from God.
We should not be trying to add commands to the Bible. Matt 23 comes to mind.
Sharkly mentions Matt 5 above. Kind of off topic, but an interesting additional comment is to note that Matt 5:31-32 is (usually?) correctly translated into English with the word “wife”. Whereas the portion in 27-28, which is based on the OT law against adultery, incorrectly uses “woman”. Adultery is obviously relating to having sex with another man’s wife. An unmarried man and woman cannot commit adultery together; which is not to say that being a harlot is in any way desirable. See Deut 22 for a condemnation of both being a harlot and then also trying to marry.
So I think “wife” is far more likely a correct translation than “woman”.
(I suspect that people mistranslate Matt 5:27-28 because that broadens the application, in a manner that is pleasing to older women. But you would have to ask the individual translators.)
Bee,
I agree that the King James Bible is the best about getting the sexes and literal words right.
Ace,
I agree Catholicism,(the great whore of Rome) has really messed up people’s sex lives throughout its existence. I believe that is one of its chief unholy purposes.
Feminism, however, is about women usurping control over men to lead them away from God. Feminism is in the original sin from the garden of Eden. Their talking point about equality between the sexes is a lie. Both Catholics and Protestants push the misandrist lie that a woman is equal to a man.
Feminism wants things both ways with porn. Women showing off their bodies is empowering. Women debauching themselves and others for money is empowering. Women enjoying porn is liberating. However, when men look at porn they are sexual failures who deserve to be ridiculed, and it degrades women. When men produce porn, all the
slutsactresses are their victims. Feminism is just a female supremacist ideology we are being told is “equality”, where some(with cunts) are more equal than the others.JPF,
Welcome, and thank you for saving me all that time, by basically writing out my own response, to Bee, for me.
Not to pick on you, Bee, but, I think some of the verses Ace gave are better arguments against porn than Leviticus chapters 18 & 20.
JPF,
Read more carefully next time. I said “both”. Both naked looking and sexual relations.
What I wrote:
“Some would argue that the phrase, “uncover the nakedness ….” means having sexual intercourse, not looking at them naked, but I think this phrase means both; seeing them naked, and having sexual relations with them.”
The list is more than blood relatives.
JPF,
“I know you can do better brother. (Not being facetious; I truly want you to do better, as I know you can.)”
1. This is not an argument.
2. You are not my father. Do not try to shame me ever again!
It sure has been entertaining to watch the hamsters switch into high gear, as is always the case when you tell a manospherean that his/her favorite form of sexual deviance is sin. It’s like a law of the universe.
Also, it couldn’t hurt any happily married guys here to look into what porn use does to a wife’s sexual self-perception so you can avoid a damage that often leads to sexual refusal and sometimes divorce. Your Biblical hair-splitting to prove you can porn is not going to help a devastated wife.
Eavan,
I’m not “Biblical hair-splitting to prove” my opinion. I’m actually slightly undecided at this point. While also taking into consideration your interjections of decidedly anti-porn yippity yap, I am trying to hair-split down to the truth of God’s word, so that I can best follow it and encourage others in righteousness, without overstepping God’s revealed truth, in either direction, or self-righteously attacking others’ permissible liberty.
I personally would not see any mitigating circumstance for a married man to be regularly looking at porn if his wife wasn’t already sexually resisting him first. Your wife-damaging strawman would be exhibiting either a psychological issue, or that he is fundamentally at issue with Christian monogamous marriage itself. But I think it is a rare woman these days who always fully obeys 1 Corinthians 7:2-5, many women, behaving much like untrustworthy children, just want to be able to blame a husband’s fully predictable behavior, for their own prior willful defrauding that continuously propelled him directly into a temptation that she herself had been made to, was chosen to, and vowed before God to, assuage. Most women who race to cast the first stone at a porn watcher, have a beam in their own eye when it comes to facing the greater reality of how most women have quit being the satisfaction the “help meet” for their mate, that God tells us He made them to be, at the very start of the Bible.
Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
That Old English word “meet”, in that situation, is defined as ~ to fulfill or to satisfy.
Sharkly: You crack me up when you start getting all blow-hardy.
I wasn’t actually addressing only you with the obvious hair-splitting – it’s being practiced by all the porn apologists here.
You have also all successfully undercut any possible objection regarding chick porn given that the Bible says absolutely nothing about erotic literature. Oh, wait, there is actually erotic literature in the Bible! Oh what to do….perhaps the Bible is telling me to go buy and study 50 Shades of Grey! It would probably help my marriage enormously were I to spend time reflecting on and comparing the perfections of Christian Grey to the man who actually belongs to me.
As regards “strawmen”, that certainly is a favorite go-to of red pills. Perhaps it makes them feel like they’re actually using reason and logic if they know the name of a fallacy. Anybody who is paying attention is aware that there are many, many women who have been actively damaged by porn and it certainly isn’t the case that men only turn to porn when their wives withhold. Men turn to porn when they’re stressed, bored, just had sex but it wasn’t kinky enough, because they’re curious about the newest latest girl, because they have an attachment to a particular actress, etc.
For what it’s worth, I am anti-porn because it enslaves men and turns them into fools. Biblically, male sexuality should be carefully guarded against the machinations of bad women, but men are instead actively participating in their own ruin and claiming that God said they could and because Jesus saw naked people he was exactly like a porn user.
OT
Wow, hot take from Bnonn! He names names.
D. Bnonn Tennant
@bnonn
·
Mar 5
Why must women be trained to love their husbands, love their children, be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, and in subjection to their own husbands?
Paul explains: “That the word of God be not blasphemed” (Tit 2:5).
Tip
D. Bnonn Tennant
@bnonn
Women who invert this order, leaving their husbands at home, refusing their theological guidance and taking up leadership in the church, are *blasphemers.*
@BethMooreLPM
is a blasphemer.
@aimeebyrdhwt
is a blasphemer. Rachel Miller is a blasphemer.
4:34 PM · Mar 5, 2020·Twitter Web App
5
Likes
D. Bnonn Tennant
@bnonn
·
Mar 5
Replying to
@bnonn
And the elders who promote and enable these women promote and enable blasphemy. According to Paul,
@jdgreear
promotes and enables blasphemy.
@albertmohler
promotes and enables blasphemy.
@RScottClark
promotes and enables blasphemy.
@ToddPruitt6
, Carl Truman and many others also.
Tip
D. Bnonn Tennant
@bnonn
·
Mar 5
Why is it blasphemy for women to fail to do what Paul describes? He does not explain; he knows that Titus, as an elder, already understands such basic truths, holding fast to the faithful word and being able both to exhort in sound doctrine and convict gainsayers (Tit 1:9).
Tip
D. Bnonn Tennant
@bnonn
·
Mar 5
Unfortunately, many high-profile elders in the church today *are* the gainsayers; they are the unruly men of verse 10, vain talkers and deceivers who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not for filthy lucre’s sake. They are spiritual Cretans (cf. v. 12).
Eavan, you follow the typical approach (especially in “Christian” circles) in presuming the man’s porn use precedes the wife’s sexual refusal, and continue it by considering the woman’s response to be understandable and appropriate. If refusal was defined as sex less than once a week, then I think refusal is true for more than 25% of marriages after one year. I rather doubt that wives’ low sexual self-esteem due to porn use is responsible for such refusal. In other words, I question your implied premise that the problem always starts with the man.
i’m not a fan of BM, et al.
i remember the birth of the ‘women’s ministry’ in the churches and watching it take off in these unmanaged directions.
the church i was in did not have a women’s ministry, and three of us talked about how it would be beneficial. there was a book out, at the time, where it was begun in another church, and the women spent a whole year in prayer before they did anything. so three of us decided to spend a year in prayer and see where God led. at our second meeting, the one of the three who was the pastor’s wife came in and said the pastor wanted us to begin right away and do xyz. i was extremely disappointed.
looking back … i wonder if it was a way for male leaders to slough off the women onto someone else? idk. but i thought, at the time, that it was careless.
for other reasons, pertaining to this pastor, we left that church not too long after. by then, women’s ministry was fairly well entrenched within the church, as a whole.
one of the foundations of what this book suggested, and what we did, was to create a program matching older women to younger women for a one-on-one, one-year, mentorship. i thought this was a great idea, and i still do. it worked well for some, not so well for others, as anytime you match two women together who don’t know each other it’s hit-and-miss ????
out of all of this came the bible studies for women that *must* be based on a book that a person wrote that was not the bible. this was extremely disturbing to me. at the time, my first husband and i were teaching a couple’s sunday school class, and i taught the women once-a-month in a bible study. although this was before we had kids, i was too young to do this … but that’s another story. by then i was out of the leadership of the women’s ministry … i can’t remember why except i do not remember anything negative, so it must have been my choice. anyway, they decided to put together their own women’s retreat. the women in my bible study wanted me to teach one of the sessions, but the leaders decided that i could not because i didn’t teach from someone else’s book, i only taught from the bible.
from those bible studies, such as BM’s, came this underlying, sometime overt, definitely covert, belief that those who took these bible studies were more godly and spiritual than others, especially their husbands, and that the standard for determining the godliness of a person was their attendance and participation in a weekly bible study. i heard rumblings of how this did not set well with husbands and even had one husband tell me how much he did not like this.
that story is a bit interesting. i was keeping their two babies in my home while they worked, so sometimes it would be the dad who dropped off or picked up, and we had a few convo’s over that time. one of them i distinctly remember was about BM bible studies his wife was doing and how he loathed them but she continued to do them despite his loathing of them. i supported him to her, but she insisted. they have stayed married, and to my knowledge have a good marriage. i think she’s whiny, but perhaps not. he seems to be able to put her in her place as i did see him do that more than once. now she’s leading a group of women who lauds all these women bible ‘preachers.’ we’re friends on fb, and as we moved from that town, i have no other contact with them. but i have much sorrow over this.
btw – who is Bnonn?
Ame,
Bnonn Tennant is a Christian blogger who has teamed up with Pastor Michael Foster to start a Christian Red Pill blog and podcast called, It is Good to Be a Man. They are also writing a book.
https://bnonn.com/
Sharkly and Bnonn have had some good debates regarding men, but not women, made in the image of God. But, for quite a while Bnonn has been deleting Sharkly’s comments from his blog making the debate one-sided.
Bnonn & Foster say a lot of good things, like the above tweets, but they also seem determined to steer and shield Christian men away from Red Pill blogs like Dalrock, Sharkly, Deep Strength, Sigma Frame, Gunner Q, Rational Male, and many others I have not named. In this regard they appear to me to be possible gatekeepers and pressure relief valves. I could be wrong about that.
Also see Sharkly’s post, Bnonnas Foster:
https://laf443259520.androsphere.net/2019/10/07/bnonnas-foster-a-delightful-treat/
Eavan,
You make some good counter points, but you paint with a broad brush. And you seem to not be willing to hear the other side of things, or to want to let them air their views. While I understand that evil and error need to be condemned, we should be allowed to split hairs and discuss what the Bible actually says and doesn’t say, what it directly forbids, and what is rightly or wrongly forbidden by application.
Many things you imply about me are not true.
In 1995 I was telling folks at a local mega-church that I was leaving, because all that their celebrity pastor liked to do was to set up a strawman so contemptible that everybody could hate him, and then beat the stuffing out of him, and to charge the common ground. It wasn’t until decades later that I saw “strawman” on list of logical fallacies on the internet. And I don’t try to speak over peoples’ heads and use terms I don’t think they will know, without also providing the definition. I trust everyone knows what a strawman argument is, and perhaps the reason it is a favorite cry of the red-pill folks, is because Feminism is usually pushed via the talking points of overhyped anecdotes of extreme cases and the establishment of strawmen that are repeatedly given a public flogging. There really is no good justification for female supremacy, like there is for male supremacy.
Eavan says: Men turn to porn when they’re stressed, bored …
You want us to believe that normal men would rather have a relationship with their hand than to relieve stress and boredom by making love with their wives. LOL The things the Feminist movement has taught you simply aren’t true! Any man without a disorder or an addiction would prefer the wife he married for that purpose, to serve her purpose. Yes pornography can be addictive, and some men will have issues from childhood that predispose them to becoming addicted to it, but most men will not become addicted to porn if they have a better outlet for their sexual desire. Their wives just refuse to honor their husband and their vows, they refuse to validate them as men made in the image of God and worthy of service. Statistically, the majority of wives are just whoring fools who willfully degraded the joy of their own sexuality with others, yet choose to defraud their own husbands, and then slander their husband when he looks elsewhere for release, while he stays honorable and true to his vow of “forsaking all others”. Or do you contend that masturbation is adultery?
I truly am sorry for and can sympathize with and commiserate with sexually defrauded women whose husbands abuse porn. However, functionally the best way to reduce the most demand for the illicit is to make sure that the pure sex sanctified by marriage is available for these who might otherwise burn with the lust of the flesh. When I got married I had absolutely no intention of ever looking at porn again. I wrongly thought I had married a caring person who would seek to meet my needs.
I was also dismayed to find the churchians refused to have the testicular fortitude to speak the truth of God’s word to my wife, and when I spoke the truth of God’s word, those emasculated cowards would argue and make excuses for my wife’s sexual immorality of defrauding me while she was having online affairs with her former sex partners. The last thing the church needs to be doing is more pandering to sex-misusing feminist wives and demonizing those men they have been left to porn or adultery by their cowardly refusal to address the sin of their wives that put their husbands into the temptation in the first place.
1 Corinthians 7:2-5 (Names Of God – Bible)
2 But in order to avoid sexual sins, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. 3 Husbands and wives should satisfy each other’s sexual needs. 4 A wife doesn’t have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn’t have authority over his own body, but his wife does. 5 Don’t withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so for a set time to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should get back together so that Satan doesn’t use your lack of self-control to tempt you.
Jesus saw naked women and nude statues and was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. I wasn’t making Jesus out to be just like whatever horrible image you keep in your head of porn users. Are you contending that Jesus sinned by not condemning sexual imagery more clearly like you think He should have? And contending that the Bible contains “chick porn”, yet visual imagery is super evil?
Eavan says: For what it’s worth, I am anti-porn because it enslaves men and turns them into fools.
I agree that it is dishonoring that a married man might have to stoop to pornography to have his sexual needs met, but the dishonoring fool in that scenario is his wife who turned him over to the temptation, unless the man himself turned his wife’s ongoing sexual offer down to choose porn over his wife. I’m not saying that those men aren’t out there, but just that the vast majority of porn users would rather be having sex with an adoring wife. And I can speak not just from knowledge, but from my personal experience with this.
Bee,
Thanks for sharing that. I owe a big congratulations to Dominic “Bnonn” Tennant for his boldness and for naming the false teachers.
He named seven, if I counted correctly.
I’m still kind of the other way. I think a shorter list would be the teachers that are not ashamed and stay true to the word of God. I’d name the true teachers who don’t compromise God’s word with this world’s great whore worship, if I knew of some. Some of us in the Christian manosphere, Bnonn and Foster included, might be the closest thing there is in this generation, to teachers that aren’t afraid to stand up directly against the whore worship. The world is worshipping the creature rather than the creator, just like in the Garden of Eden, where Adam considered Eve more worth following than God. Eve held the greater worth-ship briefly in Adam’s heart. And he and all his children have been deservedly punished by a Jealous God. We, having acted through Adam our father, ought not to have done that. How foolish of us today to return to that same foolishness, like a dog returning to eat its vomit. We chose to harken unto women instead of God, we let them vote, and so they rule over us, by our own stupid rebellion to God’s Word.
I just wish Bnonn and Foster would be bold enough to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. The male image of God the Father in whom dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Jesus did not come to be born a hermaphrodite. Christ was both man and God! Nor did Christ ever identify as Caitlyn. Women are not in the image of God, and Bnonn and Foster blasphemously emasculate God our Father and Christ the Son and they even blaspheme the Holy Spirit Himself, by claiming that women picture God Himself, the weaker fickle vessels, the periodically unclean natural defilers, created to be in subjection to the image of God, women who rightly should be shamefaced. Add your names to the list of blasphemers, Bnonn and Foster. You apparently still don’t have near the balls that Jesus Christ did to stand up and fully confront this world.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Bnonn says: “Why, then, is woman the glory of man? Is she not made in the image of God? Any modern Christian who claims not to get at least uneasy reading this passage—and probably tight under the collar—is fibbing. We are so conditioned by feminism we can’t help it.”
I’m not uneasy reading that. Its my new favorite verse! God and I love how it makes you Feminist cunt-worshippers squirm.
Welcome OKRickety,
If refusal was defined as sex less than once a week, then I think refusal is true for more than 25% of marriages after one year.
Scary prospects! Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:2-5, I think sexual refusal is already an extreme breach of marriage and puts the spouse under multiple temptations. Not just the temptation to commit adultery, but the temptation to be unloving, to be bitter, to take out their sexual frustration on others, there are all sorts of ways that a betrayed person might be tempted to react after having been grossly rejected by the person they prepared their entire life to be a good mate to.
I want people to know that even sexual resistance, is deeply hurtful to your mate and to your marriage. Should the bride of Christ say, “please, not tonight, I’m tired”, and then do other things for hours? Then neither should any Christ following bride resist her husband if she is still able to fulfill her purpose. And she should consider it all joy to do it with gusto as unto the Lord. Every Christofeminist has some apocryphal horror story about some husband demanding sex when it would damage his wife, but that’s all they have is flogging that sort of strawman to play on men’s natural instinct to protect women, to tempt men to permit women to become the arbiters of sex instead of following the good and holy command of our all knowing and loving God.
I just saw that Jack, at Σ Frame, had already released a new post quite similar to my last comment:
https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2020/03/09/sexual-consent-in-marriage/
If I was addressing a group of women salivating over chick porn, then I would tell them that chick porn fails to meet God’s standard of sexual purity and they are defrauding their husbands by comparing them to fantasy men. But this is not a group of women advocating for porn, so I’m not addressing women’s problem with porn. Clearly. Red pill men complain all the time that women say they don’t do right things because men don’t do right things. The opposite is happening here.
Men who use porn are failing in their mission for sexual purity. It doesn’t matter what their wives are doing. Women who use porn are failing in their mission for sexual purity. It doesn’t matter what their husbands are doing. Women who sexually defraud their husbands are sinning. Men who sexually defraud their wives are sinning.
In the the groups I come from, wifely sexual refusal is unheard of. Yet, their men use porn. They require their wives to engage in acts that debase them. Once this happens enough, the wife is so beat down she begins to avoid sex. This is a thing that men need to be aware of because if you have and continue to want a generous wife you might have to look to yourself to protect that.
Eavan – i very much understand the intensity of the porn issue. your comments related to porn are very emotionally charged rather than objective. how has porn affected your life, personally?
a thought on the power of fathers …
as Sharkly has pointed out, 1 corinthians 11:7 says, ” For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.”
it is also known that we equate Father God with our earthly fathers.
even now, at my age, it is difficult to separate Father God from my earthly father. and while i have recently reconnected with my earthly father, and i believe he has changed some, he is still very self-serving and selfish and a liar. he does not, and would not ever want to or think to, take care of his family, or his ‘tribe,’ as Ton often says. he hoards who he is and what he has. and the thought of my dad ever sacrificing for his family? never. did he sacrifice to build his business? yes. a lot. including us. but he did it for himself. he loves the power he has and the accolades he’s received and still receives because of his great success and wealth.
is my earthly father ‘the image and glory of God?’
i have to continuously remind myself that God is not at all like my earthly father … that God does not intentionally withhold from me out of selfishness … that God loves me generously and cares deeply for me, and does not ‘hoard’ Himself or what He owns b/c He wants to maintain His stash (emotional, material, otherwise).
i have said that there is a special power in the prayers of a father over his children, and i fully believe that is so. you, earthly fathers, represent God well to your children whether they can visually see it or not. make sure you represent Him well so that they can live their lives knowing who God is by your example. because whether you like it or not, you will always be what they think of when they think of God. please don’t make them continuously have to separate who God is from who you are.
a thought on porn . . . (and prayer)
when i was in my sexual abuse recovery group all those years ago, at the very beginning our leader said that we have developed a lot of coping mechanisms. these are gifts from God to enable us to endure terrible things. he said we would eventually learn to replace those with healthier things … but he was emphatic that we not get rid of the coping mechanisms until we had something healthy to replace them with.
i think of the verses in Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
my question: is porn a coping mechanism as well as a replacement?
i think it’s easy to say one should quit porn, but to do so without first having something healthy to replace it is unwise. for married men, obviously, that should be their wives, and this is where women sin by not being graciously and willingly available to their husbands as often as he needs and desires.
– – –
on prayer … i’ve often wondered many things about prayer – i have more questions than answers the older i get. but i wonder that one of the great purposes of prayer, especially coupled with reading our bibles, is to so fill us with God that we don’t have room for any form of evil to take up space in our hearts and souls.
– – –
we have all this ‘space’ inside our hearts and souls and minds that longs to be filled with . . . something.
i know that addicts often rotate their addictions thinking they’ve conquered the ‘bad’ one.
i’ve told my girls that if they’re going to have an addiction, and we probably all do in some form, then to choose a good, healthy one ????
Eavan,
“In the the groups I come from, wifely sexual refusal is unheard of.”
“Once this happens enough, the wife is so beat down she begins to avoid sex.”
These two sentences contradict each other.
Eavan,
“In the the groups I come from, wifely sexual refusal is unheard of.”
Is it unheard because the truth is unspoken? In the groups I come from, it’s fairly common. Well, total refusal may be rare, but there’s some significant gatekeeping going on, and there is no shortage of “Christian” leaders, both men and women, who teach that this behavior is not only acceptable, but often justified as the correct response to the husband’s behavior.
I’ve posted this like a zillion times.
Click to access Physiological%20Substrates%20of%20Mammalian%20Monogamy.pdf
It doesn’t usually go over well on Christian blogs/fora, because Christians are too braindead / deluded to understand that they’re part of the animal kingdom, and that our brains operate along the same lines as other mammals. Cue up the idiot cruxtoids to squeal about how “I’m not an ape” and such.
It sometimes doesn’t go over well on secular “game” blogs/fora, either, because the “game” types have deluded themselves into thinking that fucking lots of skanks is some sort of accomplishment. (Hint: I’ve done it for years. It’s a zero-effort lifestyle, once you know a few simple tricks.)
Anyway, isn’t your account just a psychologized account of pair bonding? I’d argue that it is. If this sort of pair bonding does happen, how else would a human male experience it?
Human beings are wired to pair up and mate for life. Much of the dysfunction and unhappiness extant in society is a result of individuals resisting our own inherent natural instincts in this direction.
Eavan said: I’m confused about the inconsistency between your challenge to Scott and Jack regarding fornication and your rather flippant attitude about the gravity of porn.
I just didn’t want them to come across as glorying in their past fornication, or wrongly treating fornication as a boon for healthy development. I believe fornication, which is often defined by God as a capital sin, is a grave defilement of two people, not developmental. And yes, I feel many people’s porn usage is of far less gravity, while some people may abuse pornography, or become mastered by it, to their own great detriment and even to the great detriment of others.
It seems like you’d prefer I left female validated men to glory in their fornication, while instead crusading against defrauded men even using porn.
LOL Sorry sister. No harken!
In the groups I come from, wifely sexual refusal is unheard of.
LOL Do tell where this successful enclave of patriarchy is, so that we can all move there. LOL
I’m thinking that you were serious when you wrote that, and that you actually believe it. Fact: generally women are more easily deceived.
…if you have and continue to want a generous wife you might have to look to yourself to protect that.
While we can influence others, everybody gets to choose their character. I know far more rich people who are stingy and far more poor people who are generous, when it should be the other way around. If a wife is a sexual miser, that is sin, and she chooses to defy God and her husband in that way. Don’t go victim blaming the defrauded. Yes, there are sinful men who abuse porn and also defraud their wives, but I’m against that too. I am into it already with a couple that I reported to their church. The wife came to me moaning about her sexual needs and how her husband wouldn’t even touch her. I don’t think she intended for me to help her out by telling it to her church leaders.
Boxer,
Thanks for your thoughts and the relevant study.
Monogamy is uncommon in mammals, with an estimated occurrence of only three percent.
Recent findings indicate that both the organization and activation of behaviors, such as pair bonding and biparental care, which characterize monogamy in prairie voles are regulated by sexually dimorphic processes.
So males and females pair bond via different processes. And we humans are pretty unique(3%) in that God chose to have us be monogamous creatures. Interesting conclusions.
As for pair bonding, I was the only one who bonded. And I really think there was an imprinting on my sexual preferences, just like with the voles studied. I think my change in porn preferences, before and after, is what led me to realize that I had been imprinted. I only mentioned my changed porn preferences to illustrate my point, but, LOL, that was enough to evoke some feisty concern, and a debate I am enjoying hosting. Like Ame, I wonder what Eavan’s experience has been, that has shaped her opinions.
Your use of “cruxtoid” made my day, as a servant of Christ, to be associated with His cross, was like chum. But after rereading it to gloat, I’m not sure if you were actually referring to me. Either way, I gave myself a well deserved mental pat on the back. LOL
“how has porn affected your life, personally?” I don’t post personal information on the internet. And I would appreciate it, Ame, as kind as you are, that you refrain from patronizing me. I’m getting enough of that from the Neanderthals.
Sharkly: I would say I’m surprised you’ve never heard of partriarchal fundie groups, but then I remembered that red pills don’t consider them patriarchal enough. There is no possible way a man in those groups could understand the sexual perspective of a woman subjected to those beliefs and the pain she suffers when she finds her fidelity is not returned. You’re one of those men, as are your readers, so you are incapable of hearing or understanding a woman’s perspective, and I most definitely include your poor wife in that.
Sexual sins are sexual sins, and your self-righteous huffing about your virginity doesn’t make you less culpable than Scott or Jack. They have done more damage to others, which they will answer for, but we are all guilty of sexual infidelity of one sort or another, and that infidelity is ultimately against God. Why would you try to get as close to sin as possible instead of trying to stay as far away as possible?
Anyway, this conversation has ultimately been fruitless because porn use is one of the bedrocks of red pill rights and I really knew that when I went into it. I suppose I thought since you called Scott and Jack on their supposed lack of repentance that you might be a red pill that actually believed in chastity.
And now I’m going to go find something better to do, like reading the old newspaper under the cat litter.
Eavan,
“how has porn affected your life, personally?” I don’t post personal information on the internet. And I would appreciate it, Ame, as kind as you are, that you refrain from patronizing me.
i apologize for coming across as patronizing; it was not my intent. your comments come across as intensely emotional, and while i agree with you, your emotion tends to cloud your message. that kind of emotion usually comes from personal experience or the experience of someone very close to you.
personally, i don’t see how porn – male or female – can be uplifting or Christ-centered. i have personally experienced terrible things due to porn, and i know others who have, too. i know it has done untold damage to many marriages – both sides, male and female.
i have learned, though, that men, especially, tend to ignore a message when surrounded with a lot of emotion. i have also learned that it is rare that people make instant changes in their lives. we digest a little truth here and there until it adds up, and something inside clicks, and we make the change. it’s about planting seeds of truth and realizing only the Holy Spirit can convict. we can be messengers of Truth, but we cannot change lives or convict of sin. learning to speak Truth, to plant seeds of Truth, and then let it go is really hard.
there is nothing new under the sun, including porn. it existed before digital, before print. our culture is currently saturated with it, but i don’t think that’s new, either. there have been times in history where whole cultures were saturated in perverse and debase and sexual sin … Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind.
i think one of the greatest challenges for us, as humans, is to not allow the pendulum to swing so high in the opposite direction when we’re trying to ‘correct’ the balance, or sin, or culture, or whatever. is it wrong for a woman to wear a low-cut top to church and then to lean over in front of a man? absolutely. but we also don’t need to button up chin to toes, either.
Ravi Zaccharias does an excellent teaching on Daniel. Ravi talks about how Daniel refused to eat the food of the king, and in doing so he drew a personal line, set a personal standard, waaay before the elusive slippery slope slides off the edge. i heard him once share stories of people who had fallen into grave sin, and each time the person could trace it back to one, seemingly benign, decision … once, seemingly benign choice … where they said yes instead of no. and that led to another yes instead of no, which led to another, and over the course of time, eventually led to death.
James 1 speaks to this clearly:
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
while this can be a quick process, it is usually a slow process . . . spread out over many years and many seemingly benign choices. once begun, it *must* give birth. it can be aborted early if we so choose, or it can be allowed to go to full-term. either way, there will be death of some sort; sin always produces death.
many years ago my friend shared with me wisdom from her MIL … her MIL said we all suffer – either from our own choices or those of others. the bible says it’s better, if we are to suffer, to suffer from doing good and not evil:
17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. I Peter 3:17
in marriage, we often ‘suffer’ for the choices of our spouse. actually, imo, one cannot be married any length of time and not suffer from something their spouse does.
when my first husband confessed to his prostitutes, he said he didn’t want to tell me b/c he knew it would hurt me, and i assured him that he hurt me when he did it, not just when he told me. i still would have stayed married to him, yet he chose to leave after a long process. i think it ate him up inside and killed him little by little, and i was powerless to do anything about it.
somehow, the marriages that make it, both partners choose to stay in and fight, to not give up, to keep trying, to keep changing and adapting, facing their own reality and dealing with it. it takes two to stay married, but only one to get divorced.
Eavan,
i think another really important, but even more extremely difficult, thing to know and remember, especially when we are the ones wronged, is that the primary One against whom that person sinned, is God.
yes, porn hurts and devastates marriages – both husbands and wives – in myriads of ways. and, yes, we sin against our spouse when we replace the role God created with anything else – mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually, spiritually.
i’m reminded of David … whose sin with Bathsheba hurt many, many people … killed one, caused the death of a baby, and caused many conflicts in his family from that point on. yet, in this deep confession of his soul, he writes that against God, and God only, did he sin. the wounded part of me screams at that! no, it does not mean others are not hurt, even tragically so … but it does mean that at the base of the matter, whatever that matter is, it is between one person and the One God.
porn is just such a difficult, complex topic. society and culture, and especially the church, have totally neutralized, devalued, and demeaned a man’s sex drive – a drive that was created by Holy God … while at the same time elevated women’s desires and emotions to a god-like-status. this is worst than the perfect storm.
then you have boys being exposed to porn, and studies show the negative effects of that. and little girls being raised to be strong and mighty and to never be ruled by anyone and yet should have a man continuously woo them and make sex always into romantic lovemaking always focused on her and what she desires and on him as a far second. all of these have such devastating effects, and trying to remove porn exposure/experience from men … and trying to reprogram women to believe the truth of Genesis 3:16, is like pulling cells out of their bodies. it takes a miracle, really. we can speak the Truth, but only the Holy Spirit can convict a heart, for only the Holy Spirit knows the truth of one’s heart. and there needs to be repentance. and forgiveness. it’s a looong process.
Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
– – –
Psalm 51 New King James Version (NKJV)
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
1 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.
i’m sorry, Eavan … i forgot to make my original point …
so, for wives, specifically … speaking to women … we, wives, get sooo wounded when caught in the middle of this and just don’t ‘get’ it … we don’t get why how he’s hurting us doesn’t affect him *enough* to stop.
i could not understand why explaining to him that he was hurting my by not wanting sex (before i even knew of his addiction), and how he was hurting me, didn’t change his behavior.
we women think if we can just explain it well, just say the right words or combination of words, we can get into their minds and cause a change of behavior.
but, (big-sigh), we can’t. i don’t understand that b/c i do not understand the male brain. i just know it is so.
it takes God, through the Holy Spirit, to convict them – actually, anyone/all of us – of our sin, at the base level … that this sin is against Holy God. and only in that moment, when we realize the gravity of our sin and the cost of our sin, can true repentance and change occur. and then we can realize how our sin has wounded other people.
and, i’m not a psychologist or counselor, but when that sin has become an addiction, then more help is needed to break that addiction.
this is why 1 Peter 3 is so important and yet so hard for us women to understand … actually, i don’t think we women every truly understand it, we just have to accept it to be true and honor God here:
Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror. I Peter 3:1-6
this is almost a pandora’s box, and i know it makes you wanna scream … the pain is so immense and we feel trapped and there’s no way out. the men wanna scream, too, when faced with how culture has manipulated the minds and wills and desires of women these days, and how the courts uphold that … and how there’s no way out for them, either.
at the end of the day, we all must fall on our face before Holy God, and face Him, and answer for what we do, regardless of what anyone else has done or is doing to us. the bible is not if/then … and while we will be held responsible for causing others to stumble, the instructions to each of us are still very clear.
Eavan Says: “There is no possible way a man in those groups could understand the sexual perspective of a woman subjected to those beliefs and the pain she suffers when she finds her fidelity is not returned. You’re one of those men, as are your readers, so you are incapable of hearing or understanding a woman’s perspective, and I most definitely include your poor wife in that.”
I understand what it is like to save myself a virgin just to spend my honeymoon with a spouse who is intentionally taunting me with her infidelity to destroy all the intimacy that she can, and to continue for 18 years in a marriage, trying to bring her to repentance, where my wife continually taunts me with her infidelity while withholding all physical, spiritual, and emotional, intimacy. I understand what it is like to be married to a woman who tells others that she wishes I would just hit her, so she could divorce me, and she literally throws her infidelity in my face so horribly, that it is inconceivable that she is not trying to get me to hit her. I understand what it is like to be refused sex for years on end and to be told that she wishes I’d have an affair, so that she could divorce me. And after restraining myself from doing the evil that she wants me to do, and has intentionally been driving me towards, I still get divorced and falsely charged with outrageous slanderous charges to steal my children. I understand more than you do, and that is why the all wise God put my sex, with more reliable understanding, in charge.
… your self-righteous huffing about your virginity …
LOL Apparently my testimony of my past virginity triggers folks of your type. While I didn’t feel like I was boasting, perhaps I should now speak of it with more pride, to trigger those who get triggered or convicted by such testimony.
… porn use is one of the bedrocks of red pill rights …
You really do like to stuff your strawmen!
I thought since you called Scott and Jack on their supposed lack of repentance that you might be a red pill that actually believed in chastity.
You thought right. Do you know of a young man who has lost his virginity to porn? I still have not endorsed porn like you seem to be trying to say. It is like you are trying to stuff your words into my mouth so that you can even make a strawman of me.
Ame says: I have learned, though, that men, especially, tend to ignore a message when surrounded with a lot of emotion.
I think I might describe it a little differently. Most men are very logical and rational. Women believe that when they load their message full of feelings, that their message has been made stronger or more potent. And perhaps to another woman it actually has become a stronger and more potent message, when her friend tells her something wrapped up in so much emotion that her life is seemingly hanging upon your approval. But for a man, if your request is wrong or your logic is faulty, saying it louder or with more feeling leaves the message just as unacceptable, and now he thinks you’re petulant on top of it all. However if your message is right and acceptable to a man, putting more feeling into it can help to show a man, who wants to please you, that it is important to you.
Ame, I think that your first husband avoided intimacy with you. So if you put more feeling into saying something, he would intentionally disregard those feelings to passively distance you. I know a woman who did that to me. ???? Not all men are like that.
I could not understand why explaining to him that he was hurting me by not wanting sex (before I even knew of his addiction), and how he was hurting me, didn’t change his behavior.
we women think if we can just explain it well, just say the right words or combination of words, we can get into their minds and cause a change of behavior.
but, (big-sigh), we can’t. I don’t understand that b/c I do not understand the male brain. I just know it is so.
Again, I believe your perspective has been warped by a man who’s subconscious preference was to hurt and distance you while publicly maintaining plausible deniability. For $9.99 I believe you can have the answers to these sort of puzzles, regarding your first husband, Ame:
I’m not like that, I don’t believe most men are like that, and I bet your new husband isn’t like that. Most men want their marriages to work, and are willing not only to do things that are mutually pleasing, but most men will even regularly make sacrifices for the good of the relationship. If you explain that something is hurting you in your relationship to the average man, he will make efforts to lessen your hurt. I’m truly sorry for what happened to you, and I can sympathize more than you’d expect,(for a Vulcan) but please don’t falsely dishonor all men because of the great evil that one man did to you and your children.
I suspect Eavan might be coping with her hurt by having contempt for men, perhaps that is why she reflexively impugns men. It isn’t of God, to treat your “neighbor” contemptuously. God wants us to show men honor, since they are in His image, and to respect that women are weaker vessels, while godly women will themselves seek to be meek, submissive, and adorn themselves with shamefacedness. Which, if they can do that, will make them winsome and alluring to good husbands. But most women instead do the things necessary to compete for the dark-triad cad’s sexual attention, and if he does more than just pump & dump her, but instead he commits, she will later divorce him for being a cad with a triad of disorders. … Who knew?
Ame says: I have learned, though, that men, especially, tend to ignore a message when surrounded with a lot of emotion.
I think I might describe it a little differently. Most men are very logical and rational. Women believe that when they load their message full of feelings, that their message has been made stronger or more potent. And perhaps to another woman it actually has become a stronger and more potent message, when her friend tells her something wrapped up in so much emotion that her life is seemingly hanging upon your approval. But for a man, if your request is wrong or your logic is faulty, saying it louder or with more feeling leaves the message just as unacceptable, and now he thinks you’re petulant on top of it all. However if your message is right and acceptable to a man, putting more feeling into it can help to show a man, who wants to please you, that it is important to you.
ahhh … that makes sense, Sharkly.
Ame, I think that your first husband avoided intimacy with you. So if you put more feeling into saying something, he would intentionally disregard those feelings to passively distance you. I know a woman who did that to me. ????
yes, i agree that he was like that. i mentioned, without the detail, to my Oldest about intimacy anorexia being a term describing people who are incapable to be intimate on any level, and she was nodding her head the whole time. “Yep, that was Daddy.”
Not all men are like that. … I’m not like that, I don’t believe most men are like that, and I bet your new husband isn’t like that. Most men want their marriages to work, and are willing not only to do things that are mutually pleasing, but most men will even regularly make sacrifices for the good of the relationship. If you explain that something is hurting you in your relationship to the average man, he will make efforts to lessen your hurt.
thank you. i need to know these things ???? . it always amazes me when my Husband cares and goes out of his way to do things for me. blows.me.away. my dad never even did things in my best interest … he did do things *for* me, but they were in *his* best interest, not mine. i’ve always seen the things my dad did/does as things that make him feel better b/c they beef up his perception of himself – give him a sort of ‘bragging’ rite that he did good things, if that makes sense. but i’ve never, ever, seen my dad as *sacrificial* on any level. my Husband, though, willingly sacrifices himself. i make an effort not to take advantage of that and to make sure he knows how deeply i appreciate it ????
Again, I believe your perspective has been warped by a man who’s subconscious preference was to hurt and distance you while publicly maintaining plausible deniability.
oh.my.gawash! “while pulicly maintaining plausible deniability” describes him to a T. he was brilliant, truly brilliant, and he could manipulate things in his best interest in his sleep. and he did.
yes, my perspective has been warped by both my grandfathers, by my father, and by my first husband. my now-Husband has spent a considerable amount of time lovingly teaching me that i’m safe with him … and that he’s not like them.
i’ve put the book on my list. the digital copy is definitely the way to buy that as the print is more expensive. i usually prefer print copies for books like that so i can flip through them and read in doses my mind can process. i’ll have to think and pray about it … going thru all that is just hard on me – very emotional … and i have to make sure i have the reserves to work through it. at the present, i have a couple of big, ’emotional’ things i’m shouldering right now, so it would probably be too much. i don’t want to become a burden to my Husband/family. and, i’ve worked thru so much that i know how much it takes out of me ????
I’m truly sorry for what happened to you, and I can sympathize more than you’d expect,(for a Vulcan)
ha! my first husband and i were huge star trek fans!
but please don’t falsely dishonor all men because of the great evil that one man did to you and your children.
oh, gosh. i deeply apologize. i had no idea and certainly do not want to dishonor all men, or any man. i’m so sorry.
I suspect Eavan might be coping with her hurt by having contempt for men, perhaps that is why she reflexively impugns men.
i understand that place. it’s a hard place to be, but it is a normal place if one has been hurt/abused by a man or men. however, it’s not a healthy place to stay. my male therapist finally said to me, “Ame, he was one man, not all men.” that was a huge, eye-opening moment for me.
It isn’t of God, to treat your “neighbor” contemptuously. God wants us to show men honor, since they are in His image thank you, again, for calling me out on it; i certainly don’t want to misrepresent or dishonor men.
I mentioned, without the detail, to my Oldest about intimacy anorexia being a term describing people who are incapable to be intimate on any level, and she was nodding her head the whole time. “Yep, that was Daddy.”
The truth is actually worse than that! This might sting a bit at first. Your “truly brilliant” first husband knew exactly how to be intimate with you and was fully capable of being intimate in just the way you needed and wanted him to be. And he did exactly that before you married him, and then he just intentionally starved you of everything he new you wanted. He even denied himself many good things just to deny them to you also, like physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, and even spiritual intimacy.
He intentionally chose to sabotage your marriage to destroy all chance of deep intimacy and immediately became addicted to withholding himself from you, and to some degree even his daughters, who wanted and needed to be emotionally intimate with him. Deep inside he had a fear of intimacy, on a subconscious level, from very early in his dysfunctional childhood. He preferred to keep his marriage strained, often to the very limit. He returned evil for good. Not because he was incapable of returning good, like before you married him, but because he intentionally chose to be evil to his wife and children. The mind-trip is that all this intentional evil behavior was amazingly still mostly subconscious to him. He really thought the way he was treating you was appropriate, for what you had done to him. And even when he was gaslighting you about his wickedness, he felt he was the true victim, and entitled to hurt you even worse than he had, and even make you out to be the cause of it. He was incapable of giving a sincere apology, because he always believed he was the one who was wronged.
Anyhow, The reason I am sharing this with you, is because even though he is dead, you are still not free of him. In your mind you are still trying to make sense of it all. But the truth can set you free. And you owe it to your new husband to make the effort and do the work to get the last guy off of your mind so much. Trust me. And If you don’t understand intimacy anorexia, an intimacy anorexic’s behavior will always have you at your wits end. But like the red pill in the matrix, once you come to understand intimacy anorexia, and see it, if you have lived with it, you won’t be able to unsee it. But at least you’ll be able to understand that he fully controlled the relationship and intentionally kept it horrific for you and that he would have intentionally defeated your every effort to create an intimate relationship with him, making you feel like just a roommate, even while he went to others who would provide sex without intimacy. I believe Dr. Weiss’ organization is likely to have some tools to help the broken partners of intimacy anorexics recover from it. But read the book first. Rip off the band-aid, don’t keep dragging your recovery out. I suspect after you read Dr. Weiss’ book, some things will fall into place, and make sense. It brought me some better clarity. He has a book of testimonials also, that a woman might enjoy more than I did. I preferred the theory. What your husband did will be hard for a sane person to ever get, but at least you can know the how and why, and realize you were never the cause of his evil behavior. The truth can set you free, free from fear, free from doubt, free from mistrust of others who are not going to be like that, free to focus on being the wonderful wife you can be to your new husband, who deserves it.
I wasn’t originally. If I thought poorly of you, I wouldn’t read here.
It’s a neologism, but it’s analytic. Note the -oid suffix. It means “not a christian but appearing like one.” I coined it on my blog to differentiate men like Derek Ramsey from men like Cane Caldo.
Of course, whether you’re actually a follower of Jesus is between you and your god, but I assume you are one.
Well, O.K.. Go read that journal article when you have the time. What you’re describing shouldn’t be surprising, given the fact that we’re hard-wired to couple up and mate for life.
Thanks boxer,
I did read the beginning and end of the journal article and skimmed the middle. I gotta let the prairie voles have some privacy to their sex lives. I guess the reason I was surprised is that I really hadn’t heard of the concept before. I had recently read a little red pilled discussion of fornication ruining women’s ability to pair bond, and that it might involve oxytocin, but that was about it. Apparently, neither Hollywood nor the churchians are ever preaching against women riding the cock-carousel, like the Feminists advocate, so there is no market for scientific findings to the contrary. The churchians tell us that if she will just say a prayer as she is sliding off the last cock, all her past will be forgiven, and she is suddenly great marriage material. Just as Hollywood has always told us that every hooker has a heart of gold.
As a woman, the idea of fornication ruining a woman’s ability to pair bond makes sense. I have no actual experience in this matter as I was a virgin when I married my husband at the age of 20 (he was 29 and not a virgin). But all the women I know and everything I read all say that women form a bond to the man they lose their virginity to (under normal circumstances – not rape or something like that) and that man will always be her *first* and she will always have a sort of attachment to him because of it, even if they marry someone else. They will always subconsciously compare their current man to their first, and the current man will always come up short because the first man is special. Or he holds that special place in her heart that no-one can replace. He might be an absolute moron, but she still has that emotional attachment to him.
Many women engage in casual sex to fill the hole the first man left in her heart. And the more men she sleeps with, the more she is disappointed because they aren’t “him”. And obviously the more men she sleeps with, the harder future relationships will be.
As for hookers having a heart of gold, I know a few hookers and they’re just like everyone else – flawed human beings. Some have good hearts, some don’t. All are fairly hardened.
And one more thing…. I’m not entirely sure what a churchian is, but my church absolutely preaches chastity before marriage.
It also doesn’t allow divorce and remarriage. Or adultery.
The things I read on this blog about attitudes and teachings within different churches astounds me because that is not my experience with church at all.
Ace,
I understand and believe that your current situation is hard. I have prayed for you and for your husband.
Thank you Bee, I appreciate your prayers hugely.
@Bee
I mentioned the above exchange on another site (https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2020/03/23/new-page-argumentation-and-debate/). I incorrectly suggested that the exchange above had happened on that site. You indicated the response should have been given here, where the exchange did occur. If you or anyone else wants to see what I wrote, they can see it at the link I provided above. This is the final response I gave to you there.
You showed up and repeated an argument that either Sharkly or Feministdesytroyer had already put to me and I had refuted
FeministDestroyer had offered the conclusion, but without providing any argument for it. Simply saying “Bee […] is dead wrong in his interpretation of Levitticus 18” is not a refutation. I provided one as I thought it could be beneficial if it was read and considered. Sharkly and Feministdesytroyer gave other responses prior, but those also did not [give] the argument I provided.
You did not treat me like a mature adult; instead of logic you tried to shame me, to chide me like a child… After this exchange you made no more comments on that thread
I cannot make you see my words as I intended them. And you are correct; I made no further comments, for the reasons I gave above [at https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2020/03/23/new-page-argumentation-and-debate/#comment-2362%5D.
It would be more mature of you to apologize to me for trying to shame me on the blog where this happened
I will not lie to you by “admitting” to something that I did not do (choose to try to shame you). I however do not control what you feel, so I can admit that it is possible you felt shamed by what I wrote. Perhaps more importantly, I agree it is unfortunate that you feel offended, as this state does not encourage either sharpening or a friendly/civil mood.
As you wish; I’ll add this response to the other blog.
JPF,
Thank you for responding to me here.
Both Sharkly and Feministdesroyer disagreed with me very strongly. But the way they disagreed with me, and the way they debated with me was much different than your approach.
I still think you owe me an apology.
I found the following post to be well thought out, well balanced, and well written:
https://therevoltingman.weebly.com/what-does-god-say-about-pornograpy.html
The article linked above by Sharkly is very good; I encourage others to read it.
Unfortunately that article does not allow comments, so I’ll put a few thoughts and an important addition here.
I think one passage that should have been mentioned in the article, as a possible command against pornography, is 1 Corinthians 6:12.
The verse is: “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything
1) This verse is generic in wording, but I think it reasonable to apply the principle to sexual desires.
2) This verse is at the beginning of a section on sexual immorality, so in addition to the generic foundation from #1 above, I think it fair to argue this principle is specifically relevant to sexual issues / sexual sins.
Pornography, or anything else, may not be sinful, in and of itself; but they can because a problem if we become mastered / dominated by that thing. Note that 1 Corinthians 6:12 does not say you are in sin if you are dominated by something; this is an important distinction. But Paul does give us the good example of refusing to be dominated by something.
This lines up perfectly with the command from 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, which state that it is better to not marry — but if you burn with passion, then it is better to marry. If I am burning with passion, then it seems reasonable to say that my sexual desires/cravings are at least partly dominating me. In this situation, it is better for the Christian man or woman to marry, so they have an outlet for these God-given sexual desires/cravings.
Note with this example however, that even in the scenario where an unmarried man is being dominated by his unmet sexual desires/cravings, the God-given sexual desires/cravings ARE STILL NOT SINFUL. Yes, the man may use a sinful substitute. But the thing that is dominating him, the sexual desires, are not a sin.
Similarly, an unmarried man may be dominated by a desire to look at pornography. The problem here is that he is dominated by something. The “thing” that is dominating him may be a sin or not; IF it is, then that is a second problem.
I used the term “unmarried man” above, as I am assuming that a married man has the ability to sexually touch and be sexually gratified with his own wife; that is the intention; see 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 and Proverbs 5:15-19.
Unfortunately, the above is not always true:
– a man’s wife may have betrayed him, either separating from him or even divorcing him. Both of these are sin, as shown in 1 Corinthians 7.
– a man’s wife may be with him, but be refusing to request for sex or sexually playing. Both of these are sin, as shown in 1 Corinthians 7: 1-9.
– a man’s wife may be with him, and even be agreeable to sex in that moment, but due to habitual sin or prior be unable to fulfill his sexual desires. An obvious example is the woman who refuses to show the self-control commanded in Titus 2:3-5, and therefore regularly overeats, leading to obesity. Many men would find a willing, but obese wife, to be unfulfilling, if not outright sexually repulsive.
– a man may have a good wife, who by definition does none of the above, but she is not present with him at the present time. Perhaps he works as a traveling salesman, or she has been kept for weeks in a hospital due to some serious health issue.
Assuming a man has a good wife, I cannot see any man wanting a pornographic image that he cannot touch or hold, instead of his live, loving wife, who is eager to fulfill his desires and give him sex. If a “Christian” wife claims that her husband prefers pornography to her, then our first response should be to ask what the hell is wrong with her choices and attitudes that would result in a man preferring a dead image to a live, loving wife.
Is she cold, dismissive, or rejecting toward him or his sexual desires?
Is she fat and therefore repulsive to him?
Does she cut her hair (1 Corinthians 11:1-16), which is both a sin and removes what God’s word says is her glory?
Is she controlling instead of submissive to his authority? I Peter chapters 2 and 3.
Does she frequently wear what could be considered men’s clothing? This is an abomination to the Lord (Deuteronomy 22:5); it likely will be to a godly man too.
Or, if they don’t directly contradict the Word of God but cause un-Godly desire in your heart then they are forbidden for you.
This important point from the author is similar to the discussion above about not being dominated.
Those definitions are given to us in the Old Testament and are limited to adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexuality. The New Testament doesn’t expand those definitions so neither can we
This is a critical point of humility and authority. God has the authority to issue moral commands for all people — I do not. And your church does not. This is a major problem with many (not all) people from the Roman Catholic religion or the Orthodox church. Many think that their “church” should be able to command others to accept a certain interpretation of Scripture or to accept some new command that either has a flimsy basis in Scripture or none at all.
God stated what is sexually immoral. The fact that I feel that some additional thing is sexually immoral does nothing to prove that it is. God is in charge; I am not. And neither are you or your church.
[if you] are ashamed then you are most likely sinning
This is a mistake on the part of the author. My feelings of shame are not an infallible divine tool to use to determine right and wrong. Consider the adulteress in Proverbs 30:20:
This is the way of an adulteress:
she eats and wipes her mouth
and says, “I have done no wrong.”
Is her lack of shame proof that adultery is not sin? Of course not.
Is it possible to feel shame when there has been no sin? Of course it is. Consider a man who feels ashamed due to a lack of success at work. Assuming he is not lazy or dishonest, the feeling of shame does nothing to prove he has sinned.
certainly it is no sin to preach against pornography or to use Biblical principles to do so. But these teachings must presented as the precepts of men, they can not be taught as doctrine
I am reluctant to accuse the author of being “wrong” in this point; but I will say I think it is dangerous to advise this.
Partly because many people will not be careful to always present their human precepts as only human precepts or human tradition. The temptation to start commanding other people, as if you have the authority of God, seems to strong to resist for long for many.
IF a man is careful to give these kinds of teaching as only their own advice, then fine. I just would be reluctant to trust someone to be content with that.
Unfortunately, it is often necessary to do exactly what the author proposes. Not every situation is addressed in Scripture, and frequently we are asked how to live out obedience to God in our current situation/culture. A husband or other religious leader may be asked questions about investing, job opportunities, possible wives for his son. There are many verses available, and we should start with those; but many questions are not directly answered by Scripture.
So I agree with the author…… but I would advise great caution, both for the teacher (James 3:1-2) and for the listener.
Excellent comment, JPF, and an excellent analysis of the linked article and the scriptures you reference.